Can you match the sonograph to the speaker system used and would you have a preference? Comments welcome.
Part 1 : Time Domain Analysis (follows) better pics@ http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...nteraction-pics-your-opinion.html#post5048009
Part 2 : Frequency Response http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-3.html#post5049166
Part 3 : TDA vs Distance for OmniDirectional http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-6.html#post5052633
Part 4 : Picking a bad spot (on purpose), FR at a null http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-5.html#post5051233
The following pics are taken using Acoustic Labs TDL S/W (demo) which measures the frequency and delay from the speaker, giving you a sonograph of the speaker room "combination". The room is 5mx4mx2.5m (WDH) has common furniture, is carpeted, and no acoustic wall treatment. I have no connection to Acoustic Labs, the S/W was brought to my attention by Wesayso. I find it very interesting, and I'm trying to improve my Omni project so I decided to benchmark it against other systems in the same room.
There are 3 very different test systems used in the exact same room, using the same amplifier, room placement, and microphone at the "sweet spot". We'll call them Speaker1, Speaker2, and Speaker3. One of systems is a 5.1 surround, another is a custom omnidirectional pair and yet another is a standard 2.5way stereo pair. I will eventually post speaker photos and the identities on this page after I get some feedback.
*********** Spoiler Alert : Answers and Analysis ******************
Part1 TDA : answers at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-2.html#post5048578 analysis at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-3.html#post5048581
Part2 FR : answers at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-5.html#post5051197 analysis at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-5.html#post5051212
Part 1 : Time Domain Analysis (follows) better pics@ http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...nteraction-pics-your-opinion.html#post5048009
Part 2 : Frequency Response http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-3.html#post5049166
Part 3 : TDA vs Distance for OmniDirectional http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-6.html#post5052633
Part 4 : Picking a bad spot (on purpose), FR at a null http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-5.html#post5051233
The following pics are taken using Acoustic Labs TDL S/W (demo) which measures the frequency and delay from the speaker, giving you a sonograph of the speaker room "combination". The room is 5mx4mx2.5m (WDH) has common furniture, is carpeted, and no acoustic wall treatment. I have no connection to Acoustic Labs, the S/W was brought to my attention by Wesayso. I find it very interesting, and I'm trying to improve my Omni project so I decided to benchmark it against other systems in the same room.
There are 3 very different test systems used in the exact same room, using the same amplifier, room placement, and microphone at the "sweet spot". We'll call them Speaker1, Speaker2, and Speaker3. One of systems is a 5.1 surround, another is a custom omnidirectional pair and yet another is a standard 2.5way stereo pair. I will eventually post speaker photos and the identities on this page after I get some feedback.
*********** Spoiler Alert : Answers and Analysis ******************
Part1 TDA : answers at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-2.html#post5048578 analysis at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-3.html#post5048581
Part2 FR : answers at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-5.html#post5051197 analysis at http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...eraction-pics-your-opinion-5.html#post5051212
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It is a little hard to see from the 3D view alone. I find comparing the 2D to 3D can help to make sense of both. The 200 to 300 issue in your room blurs things a little too.
My guess
Speaker 1 your omni, seems to have the biggest issue at 200 to 300Hz like in your previous measurement.
Speaker 2 looks more likely to be the 5.1 system as the bass is separated in time and less like one single speaker.
Speaker 3 the 2.5 way, it has a more traditional phase warp from the crossover
I could be completely wrong though, speaker 2 is more how I thought your omni would measure as it seems to have a lot more reflections and room interaction.
I would think that either 1 or 3 would be my preference as they seem cleaner in the mid to high frequencies.
My guess
Speaker 1 your omni, seems to have the biggest issue at 200 to 300Hz like in your previous measurement.
Speaker 2 looks more likely to be the 5.1 system as the bass is separated in time and less like one single speaker.
Speaker 3 the 2.5 way, it has a more traditional phase warp from the crossover
I could be completely wrong though, speaker 2 is more how I thought your omni would measure as it seems to have a lot more reflections and room interaction.
I would think that either 1 or 3 would be my preference as they seem cleaner in the mid to high frequencies.
Wow that's quite the task 🙂.
It's a lively room, making this some guess work. I smuggled and looked at your thread first.
1) Omni, it's most like that single speaker measurement you showed.
2) I'd have to agree with fluid, this is the one left after determining 3 is the 2.5 way.
3) 2.5 way
No 3 has the least energy in the lows, so it could still be the Omni? We'd have to see the DFR plots too. The single speaker plot showed energy down low so that's why I'd say 1 is Omni.
My preference? I guess I'd have to say no. 1. It seems to have the clearest shot at imaging and soundstage. If that's the Omni that would be quite an interesting result.
Second place is no. 3. A little less clear and probably still entertaining in the sweet spot.
No idea what to think about no. 2. I hope it's not the Omni. I don't think it is. The difference between that measurement and the single speaker measurement is just too big.
To make it easier to see trends, line up the microphone in the exact sweet spot, in REW or another measurement program look at the impulse graph and move the mic till you see one pulse. All three graphs show a double HF trace which means the measurement was taken a tiny bit outside that sweet spot.
If they add at the sweet spot the total energy of them would be higher than the reflections afterwards and the plot would look a little more clear.
It's a lively room, making this some guess work. I smuggled and looked at your thread first.
1) Omni, it's most like that single speaker measurement you showed.
2) I'd have to agree with fluid, this is the one left after determining 3 is the 2.5 way.
3) 2.5 way
No 3 has the least energy in the lows, so it could still be the Omni? We'd have to see the DFR plots too. The single speaker plot showed energy down low so that's why I'd say 1 is Omni.
My preference? I guess I'd have to say no. 1. It seems to have the clearest shot at imaging and soundstage. If that's the Omni that would be quite an interesting result.
Second place is no. 3. A little less clear and probably still entertaining in the sweet spot.
No idea what to think about no. 2. I hope it's not the Omni. I don't think it is. The difference between that measurement and the single speaker measurement is just too big.
To make it easier to see trends, line up the microphone in the exact sweet spot, in REW or another measurement program look at the impulse graph and move the mic till you see one pulse. All three graphs show a double HF trace which means the measurement was taken a tiny bit outside that sweet spot.
If they add at the sweet spot the total energy of them would be higher than the reflections afterwards and the plot would look a little more clear.
Good question, room EQ was done with Yamaha's YPAO automatic system with the mic at the sweet spot. I have to assume the DSP's room EQ is still active when I play 2ch stereo with the system set to 5.1. In fairness I don't know how to prove it.
I know, it's not obvious but you can tell it's the same room from the "fingerprint". Could the room could be dominating the speakers?
I was actually going to have my wife make the measurement so that it would be a true double blind test. It's hardly fair that I know the answer and can't participate.
I updated the original post with an offer to give the answer via PM if you can't wait to find out.
The double trace (@1-2ms) is because in all cases the RL speakers are beside a large screen TV and its causing a near field strong early reflection. I verified it as well by moving the speakers and mic as a test. These speakers are 1.3M from the wall. Sharp eye 😀
Was guided to this thread thanks to wesayso, wow some interesting nice system sharings look forward to hear what is what : )
Really don't know what is what so its pure guessing and based on HF sprayed reflections.
1) 2.5way stereo pair
2) omnidirectional pair
3) 5.1 surround
Speaker2/3 looks bit too diffuse even they probably sound interesting so Speaker1 should be my preference based on visuals.
Guess to get good time alignment at sweet spot needs room treatment, have a non treated room close to size as DonVK and full of furniture, here is how time alignment looks for one mono speaker, think it sounds over average fantastic within one meter and fine farther away but if aligned at 2-4 meters it gets a mess at all positions.
Really don't know what is what so its pure guessing and based on HF sprayed reflections.
1) 2.5way stereo pair
2) omnidirectional pair
3) 5.1 surround
Speaker2/3 looks bit too diffuse even they probably sound interesting so Speaker1 should be my preference based on visuals.
Guess to get good time alignment at sweet spot needs room treatment, have a non treated room close to size as DonVK and full of furniture, here is how time alignment looks for one mono speaker, think it sounds over average fantastic within one meter and fine farther away but if aligned at 2-4 meters it gets a mess at all positions.
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I've done the same measurements, trying at different distances and I get very similar results to yours. The closer you get to your listening position the more "room" comes into play. What I wonder about is "what parts do we need to fix, if any?"
Thanks that is good to know you got similar results, can live with mine as is and enjoy music, think if seeking further improvement natural next step is room treatment if location and family allow it, and with that fixed low end section will probably never get near perfect before array of woofers is present at multiple heights.
My guess to original question:
1 - HT - Seems to have excited the room modes the most, so my guess is this one has the subwoofer.
2 - Omni - Most late arriving mid-HF hash
3 - Standard 2.5 way - Most room friendly. Bass nodes aren't as excited and mid-treble arrivals decay most smoothly.
Also, difference in bass modes between 1, and the other two shows room is overall well damped.
Mind you, I make no assesment as to sound quality, just relative views. 🙂
If I win, do I get a cookie?
E
1 - HT - Seems to have excited the room modes the most, so my guess is this one has the subwoofer.
2 - Omni - Most late arriving mid-HF hash
3 - Standard 2.5 way - Most room friendly. Bass nodes aren't as excited and mid-treble arrivals decay most smoothly.
Also, difference in bass modes between 1, and the other two shows room is overall well damped.
Mind you, I make no assesment as to sound quality, just relative views. 🙂
If I win, do I get a cookie?
E
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I am tempted to say the following:
1- by default, the 5.1
2- Are probably the omnis, the clutter in the higher frequency time scale would lead me in that direction
3- I like how clean this one is, so gonna go with 2.5 way
1- by default, the 5.1
2- Are probably the omnis, the clutter in the higher frequency time scale would lead me in that direction
3- I like how clean this one is, so gonna go with 2.5 way
.... but,... the room has not been treated 😀 Just normal furniture and luck.
I'm afraid I'll have to deduct points.
I'm afraid I'll have to deduct points.
Damn. 🙂 Well your modes didn't get excited as expected except with the sub. I want your listening room. 🙂
.. and the answer is :
System1= Paradigm Monitor 7v5, 2.5way floor model
System2= Omni, homebrew 2 way
System3= Paradigm 7V5 + CC370_V4 + MiniMonitor_V4
They serve different purposes and I enjoy all of them. See following pages for analysis.
Byrtt is the only one correct on all 3 speakers.
System1= Paradigm Monitor 7v5, 2.5way floor model
System2= Omni, homebrew 2 way
System3= Paradigm 7V5 + CC370_V4 + MiniMonitor_V4
They serve different purposes and I enjoy all of them. See following pages for analysis.
Byrtt is the only one correct on all 3 speakers.
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