My situation is probably a fairly common one. I'm not an enthusiast, but I love watching movies and listening to music on the system I've put together. Here is the sound I've got thus far:
Receiver: Pioneer VSX-1014
Front and Rear Speakers: Polk RT55i (47hz to 25khz at -3db)
Center: Polk CSi3
Source: HTPC
Display: NEC LT240K
From the list of items above, I'm sure you can all tell that I don't have near as much money to throw at this stuff as a lot of others do. I'm currently looking for a sub. I had narrowed the search to the HSU STF-3 ($599).
Without any speaker building experience at all, do you think building a sub is something I should look into? Will I be able to achieve similar (or better) results for significantly less money than the HSU? If it is something you think I can do, where do I start?
By the way, my room has 7 1/2 foot ceilings, is 19 feet long, and 13 feet wide. One side (a short side) opens into the dining room, so there is no real wall there. The only separation is the couch that I sit on. The screen and front speakers are on the opposite wall (so, I'm about 17 feet away from screen and front speakers).
Thanks,
Wad
Receiver: Pioneer VSX-1014
Front and Rear Speakers: Polk RT55i (47hz to 25khz at -3db)
Center: Polk CSi3
Source: HTPC
Display: NEC LT240K
From the list of items above, I'm sure you can all tell that I don't have near as much money to throw at this stuff as a lot of others do. I'm currently looking for a sub. I had narrowed the search to the HSU STF-3 ($599).
Without any speaker building experience at all, do you think building a sub is something I should look into? Will I be able to achieve similar (or better) results for significantly less money than the HSU? If it is something you think I can do, where do I start?
By the way, my room has 7 1/2 foot ceilings, is 19 feet long, and 13 feet wide. One side (a short side) opens into the dining room, so there is no real wall there. The only separation is the couch that I sit on. The screen and front speakers are on the opposite wall (so, I'm about 17 feet away from screen and front speakers).
Thanks,
Wad
If you already have access to or own the right tools, and also would most likely continue building then YES. If you just want a one off deal just buy one and then the answer is NO.
The Butcher 😀
The Butcher 😀
id DEFINATELY reccomend building. Great people, Great learning curve, and some VERY versitile speakers to be sure. Its nice to know, that if you build a box with a woofer and its sounds bad, you can always build another to mkae it sound better.
Plus just having made it gives it a whole new satisfaction! its kinda of nci to think that YOUR subwoofer blows anything at best buy away for less money.
Plus just having made it gives it a whole new satisfaction! its kinda of nci to think that YOUR subwoofer blows anything at best buy away for less money.
How about a kit?
You could always try a kit...
I haven't tried these (or heard them!) so... but some kit options might be:
Parts Express Titanic 12" kit
North Creek Poseidon (think you have to build your own enclosure for this one)
Madisound has some nice kits as well.
Order the kit NOW, before the speaker building bug bites you and you start wanting to design your own! Once you venture down that path, forever will it control your destiny! 😀
You could always try a kit...
I haven't tried these (or heard them!) so... but some kit options might be:
Parts Express Titanic 12" kit
North Creek Poseidon (think you have to build your own enclosure for this one)
Madisound has some nice kits as well.
Order the kit NOW, before the speaker building bug bites you and you start wanting to design your own! Once you venture down that path, forever will it control your destiny! 😀
You can beat that subwoofer easily, but it will be bigger.
I just finished a Adire Audio Shiva subwoofer, it costs around 350$US for the total project, the driver, port, amplifier, wood, screws, stain, etc.
If you have the time, I recommend you to do your own subwoofer.
As I said, it's bigger, it's 22,5" wide x 22,5" long x 26" high. But it will go down to 18 Hz versus 25 Hz, and it will be a good 5 dB louder in the low range.
I just finished a Adire Audio Shiva subwoofer, it costs around 350$US for the total project, the driver, port, amplifier, wood, screws, stain, etc.
If you have the time, I recommend you to do your own subwoofer.
As I said, it's bigger, it's 22,5" wide x 22,5" long x 26" high. But it will go down to 18 Hz versus 25 Hz, and it will be a good 5 dB louder in the low range.
Just finishing my first sub
My woodworking skills are,at best, laughable. So I had the lumber yard cut my mdf tothe sizes I needed fo rmy 15" Quatro ported box. I have a circular saw and jig saw. I just can't make straight cut with them, no matter what I do. I did have to trim three of the sides because the lumber yard cut the other one too short (less than an inch). I put my cut edges on the bottom. Seems fine. I have not installed the driver and amp yet, so I don't know how it will work. I doubt that I will build any more speakers, but I'm glad I'm building this one. Is has been a fun and educational experience.
This will cost me about $375.00 US by the time I'm done. Admittedly this is because I got the driver an damp when PE had its Christmas DOTDs. I saved over $100 on the 500 watt amp. Actually, this was a large cost overrun. I intended to get the 240 watt PE amp which is about $120 as opposed to the $197.00 I spent. The mdf from a lumber yard with all of the cuts ws nerly $50 instead of the $20 plus that I might have spent at Home Depot or Lowes. But I don't know if the big box store would have even attempted the cuts, let alone get them close to right. I used a Percision Port because it is flared on both ends and the outside flare has a flange that covers the fact that I can't cut circles, either.
We won't discuss trying to figure out which way teh grain runs on mdf so you can paint it correctlly.
Anyway, I don't know how this will work, or how it will compare to a pre-made sub. However, a poster on the PE forum built a similar desitn to mine and said it stomped a $600 Polk sub.
Anyway, I recommend that anyone give DIY a try, at least for a subwoofer. There are enough experts on the 'net to get you through the rough spots.
Have fun.
My woodworking skills are,at best, laughable. So I had the lumber yard cut my mdf tothe sizes I needed fo rmy 15" Quatro ported box. I have a circular saw and jig saw. I just can't make straight cut with them, no matter what I do. I did have to trim three of the sides because the lumber yard cut the other one too short (less than an inch). I put my cut edges on the bottom. Seems fine. I have not installed the driver and amp yet, so I don't know how it will work. I doubt that I will build any more speakers, but I'm glad I'm building this one. Is has been a fun and educational experience.
This will cost me about $375.00 US by the time I'm done. Admittedly this is because I got the driver an damp when PE had its Christmas DOTDs. I saved over $100 on the 500 watt amp. Actually, this was a large cost overrun. I intended to get the 240 watt PE amp which is about $120 as opposed to the $197.00 I spent. The mdf from a lumber yard with all of the cuts ws nerly $50 instead of the $20 plus that I might have spent at Home Depot or Lowes. But I don't know if the big box store would have even attempted the cuts, let alone get them close to right. I used a Percision Port because it is flared on both ends and the outside flare has a flange that covers the fact that I can't cut circles, either.
We won't discuss trying to figure out which way teh grain runs on mdf so you can paint it correctlly.
Anyway, I don't know how this will work, or how it will compare to a pre-made sub. However, a poster on the PE forum built a similar desitn to mine and said it stomped a $600 Polk sub.
Anyway, I recommend that anyone give DIY a try, at least for a subwoofer. There are enough experts on the 'net to get you through the rough spots.
Have fun.
Okay,
After the overwhelming response, and thank you to every one who took the time, I'm on the verge of deciding to build.
My wood working tools are decent, but my dad's are pretty good. So, this little project could serve as a way for he and I to spend some time together (as I get older, that gets tougher, and he'll appreciate it).
That said, before I start buying stuff, I need to do a lot of reading. Is there a good place to start that will explain the basics of building a subwoofer. Also, I'm not really looking to just find instructions and follow them; I'd rather actually understand what's going on. So, is there a good place to read about the inner workings of a subwoofer?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again for your responses.
Wad
After the overwhelming response, and thank you to every one who took the time, I'm on the verge of deciding to build.
My wood working tools are decent, but my dad's are pretty good. So, this little project could serve as a way for he and I to spend some time together (as I get older, that gets tougher, and he'll appreciate it).
That said, before I start buying stuff, I need to do a lot of reading. Is there a good place to start that will explain the basics of building a subwoofer. Also, I'm not really looking to just find instructions and follow them; I'd rather actually understand what's going on. So, is there a good place to read about the inner workings of a subwoofer?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thank you again for your responses.
Wad
By the way, size is of no concern at all to me. It can be as big as it needs to be. I'll just call it a piece of furniture.
Wad
Wad
Size is no concern at all? Well, you're a candidate for this:
Tempest in EBS alignment, 340 liters, 24" wide x 24" length x 48" high.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/VentedTempestApplications.PDF
Performance of this subwoofer will be AWESOME. Probably better than anything under 1000$ and it will cost maybe 500$ to build it.
To start reading, I suggest http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ It's a very good place to start.
By the way, talking about your father, I just did that. I built a subwoofer with him to spend time with each other. I learned a lot because he have more experience and I think he liked it alot. Anyway, I learned to use all his power tools worth thousands... that I needed to do the project.
Tempest in EBS alignment, 340 liters, 24" wide x 24" length x 48" high.
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/VentedTempestApplications.PDF
Performance of this subwoofer will be AWESOME. Probably better than anything under 1000$ and it will cost maybe 500$ to build it.
To start reading, I suggest http://www.diysubwoofers.org/ It's a very good place to start.
By the way, talking about your father, I just did that. I built a subwoofer with him to spend time with each other. I learned a lot because he have more experience and I think he liked it alot. Anyway, I learned to use all his power tools worth thousands... that I needed to do the project.
You can split the difference and buy an empty sub box, then just mount your driver, etc. The best prices I've seen are at www.millionbuy.com - these are generally considered automotive boxes, but they have square boxes that look OK in a home. They come with carpeting on them, so you can either live with that (mine's beneath my CD cabinet and behind a large house plant), or maybe scrape the carpet off (lotsa work), or nail some thin mdf or board over it then repaint/refinish. You can also get feet/spikes etc., and grills for them too, to dress them up and make them more visual.
You might also try eBay - some people sell old subs, etc., and some are brand new and fairly cheap, and you can just replace the usually cheap drivers that come with them.
You might also try eBay - some people sell old subs, etc., and some are brand new and fairly cheap, and you can just replace the usually cheap drivers that come with them.
Look at the Parts Express Quatro 15.
I've got both ported and sealed. Really like 'em.
$75 for the sub, $120 for the amp, and a few bucks for shipping, and you're there.
The fellow at Home Depot took his time cutting my MDF for my sealed boxes. The only hard part is the circle. You can do that with a bit of patience and a jigsaw, or you can spend a few bucks and get a Jasper jig (see the Parts Express catalog. Harbor Freight is selling a plunge router that it'll fit that's fine for occasional use.
I've got both ported and sealed. Really like 'em.
$75 for the sub, $120 for the amp, and a few bucks for shipping, and you're there.
The fellow at Home Depot took his time cutting my MDF for my sealed boxes. The only hard part is the circle. You can do that with a bit of patience and a jigsaw, or you can spend a few bucks and get a Jasper jig (see the Parts Express catalog. Harbor Freight is selling a plunge router that it'll fit that's fine for occasional use.
You picked a good place to start reading.
I also got helpful info and advice from:
www.partssexpress.com (Tech Talk)
www.hometheatertalk.com
www.hometheaterforum.com
www.htguide.com/forum (not sure if I have that one exactly right.
This site http://www.audiodiycentral.com/tools.shtml has a tool for designing boxes that I found to be a godsend.
I read forums for over a year, but it was worth it. You often do run into conflicting opinions, but that is part of the fun. You have to make your own decisions, but you can sample lots of points of view.
I also got helpful info and advice from:
www.partssexpress.com (Tech Talk)
www.hometheatertalk.com
www.hometheaterforum.com
www.htguide.com/forum (not sure if I have that one exactly right.
This site http://www.audiodiycentral.com/tools.shtml has a tool for designing boxes that I found to be a godsend.
I read forums for over a year, but it was worth it. You often do run into conflicting opinions, but that is part of the fun. You have to make your own decisions, but you can sample lots of points of view.
Okay, so I spent all yesterday and last night reading, and I feel like I know enough to be dangerous, but not near enough to really know what I'm doing.
In my mind, the process I need to go through goes something like this. Please edit/add whatever you think needs to be edited/added. I've filled in answers to the questions I know. By the way, my current equipment is listed at the top of this thread.
1. Decide how much I have to spend, and what I want this subwoofer to do (how low, how loud).
A: A +/- 1dB range of 16 hz to 80 hz would be nice (if this is unrealistic let me know). As far as loudness, enough to listen to movies loud enough to make any conversation impossible, but not so loud that my neighbors can't talk (how's that for a precision answer?). I'd like to keep total cost <$450 (again, if unrealistic, tell me). My use for this subwoofer will be 75% movies/HDTV and 25% music. Because of the movies, I love the low rumble that some subs produce, but I'd like to balance that with a sub that has some detail (tight, quick base hits when necessary - drums, rapid gunfire, etc.)
2. Get room dimensions (as they seem to greatly effect performance).
A: 20 feet deep, 15 feet wide, and 9 feet high
3. Based on the above two, chose a driver and amp.
A: Here is where I get confused. Is there somewhere that aides in this choice? Or, could I just ask you pros, and take your word for it? Is there somewhere I can go to get reviews of them?
4. Choose/Design Cabinet type.
A: I've been playing around with Adire Audio software, and it seems way over my head.
5. Misc: I don't really care about the size of the subwoofer; I have no preference as to ported/sealed/etc. (whatever it takes to get the sound I'm looking for)
6. Build it
Sorry that was so long. Again, let me say that I really appreciate all of your help so far. This seems like it's going to be fun (and addictive - sub #2 on the horizon?).
Wad
In my mind, the process I need to go through goes something like this. Please edit/add whatever you think needs to be edited/added. I've filled in answers to the questions I know. By the way, my current equipment is listed at the top of this thread.
1. Decide how much I have to spend, and what I want this subwoofer to do (how low, how loud).
A: A +/- 1dB range of 16 hz to 80 hz would be nice (if this is unrealistic let me know). As far as loudness, enough to listen to movies loud enough to make any conversation impossible, but not so loud that my neighbors can't talk (how's that for a precision answer?). I'd like to keep total cost <$450 (again, if unrealistic, tell me). My use for this subwoofer will be 75% movies/HDTV and 25% music. Because of the movies, I love the low rumble that some subs produce, but I'd like to balance that with a sub that has some detail (tight, quick base hits when necessary - drums, rapid gunfire, etc.)
2. Get room dimensions (as they seem to greatly effect performance).
A: 20 feet deep, 15 feet wide, and 9 feet high
3. Based on the above two, chose a driver and amp.
A: Here is where I get confused. Is there somewhere that aides in this choice? Or, could I just ask you pros, and take your word for it? Is there somewhere I can go to get reviews of them?
4. Choose/Design Cabinet type.
A: I've been playing around with Adire Audio software, and it seems way over my head.
5. Misc: I don't really care about the size of the subwoofer; I have no preference as to ported/sealed/etc. (whatever it takes to get the sound I'm looking for)
6. Build it
Sorry that was so long. Again, let me say that I really appreciate all of your help so far. This seems like it's going to be fun (and addictive - sub #2 on the horizon?).
Wad
You should download WinISD Pro if you want to look at the frequency response and everything else. Every type of cabinet is there, sealed, ported, 4th order bandpass, 6th order bandpass, passive radiator...
By the way, your project will be challenging, but for 450$ it's definitively feasible.
By the way, your project will be challenging, but for 450$ it's definitively feasible.
Okay,
I spent the last week reading, researching, and getting bad news.
First, the bad news - the Tempest is impossible to get a hold of these days. The good news is that I purchased the Atlas 15 from ascendantaudio. It looks like a very good driver. I've also purchased the Rythmik 350.
Over the last week, I've played around a lot with WinISD. I have realized that either I don't know how, or designing a sub with a 1 dB roll of from 16-80 hz is a ridiculous thing to do.
So, here is the new desire: 5 dB roll off from 16-60 hz. That seems very doable. My challenge now, is designing the box.
In WinISD, it seems that the Atlas does not lend itself to vented over sealed or vice versa. So, I'm open to anything.
The best I could do was a 12 cubic foot box tuned to 16.5 hz with 2 4 inch ports. Does any one have any other suggestions (to get better response, or make it smaller)?
1. Also, does the shape matter (taller vs. wider)?
2. And does downfiring vs. front firing matter?
3. Has anyone built a box with the sub before?
Thanks,
Wad
I spent the last week reading, researching, and getting bad news.
First, the bad news - the Tempest is impossible to get a hold of these days. The good news is that I purchased the Atlas 15 from ascendantaudio. It looks like a very good driver. I've also purchased the Rythmik 350.
Over the last week, I've played around a lot with WinISD. I have realized that either I don't know how, or designing a sub with a 1 dB roll of from 16-80 hz is a ridiculous thing to do.
So, here is the new desire: 5 dB roll off from 16-60 hz. That seems very doable. My challenge now, is designing the box.
In WinISD, it seems that the Atlas does not lend itself to vented over sealed or vice versa. So, I'm open to anything.
The best I could do was a 12 cubic foot box tuned to 16.5 hz with 2 4 inch ports. Does any one have any other suggestions (to get better response, or make it smaller)?
1. Also, does the shape matter (taller vs. wider)?
2. And does downfiring vs. front firing matter?
3. Has anyone built a box with the sub before?
Thanks,
Wad
BillFitzMaurice build great subwoofers. But seriously Jim, they don't have any serious output at 16 Hz versus the rest of the spectrum.
Let me look at that wad06.
First, your design is very good. It will be flat also, you forgot about room gain in your calculations. It will be around ±1 dB in-room from around 100 Hz down to 17 Hz.
If you want to know more about room gain, look at page 5 of this document. http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/VentedShivaApplications.PDF
You could also calculate it a bit for your room with this formula: Frg = 344 / (Longest dimension * 2)
Frg is the frequency where the room gain will start.
You can have a better frequency response with 15 cu.ft tuned to 16 Hz with your same dual 4 inches ports.
If you want to go smaller with a -5 dB point at 16 Hz, you could do a 8.5 cu.ft box tuned to 16 Hz. The ports will need to be quite long.
1. The shape doesn't matter much.
2. I don't know if this driver is rated for downfiring, you better ask Ascendant Audio first.
3. Not me.
Let me look at that wad06.
First, your design is very good. It will be flat also, you forgot about room gain in your calculations. It will be around ±1 dB in-room from around 100 Hz down to 17 Hz.
If you want to know more about room gain, look at page 5 of this document. http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/VentedShivaApplications.PDF
You could also calculate it a bit for your room with this formula: Frg = 344 / (Longest dimension * 2)
Frg is the frequency where the room gain will start.
You can have a better frequency response with 15 cu.ft tuned to 16 Hz with your same dual 4 inches ports.
If you want to go smaller with a -5 dB point at 16 Hz, you could do a 8.5 cu.ft box tuned to 16 Hz. The ports will need to be quite long.
1. The shape doesn't matter much.
2. I don't know if this driver is rated for downfiring, you better ask Ascendant Audio first.
3. Not me.
16Hz? No problem.
I'll leave the controversy over whether there is any program material worth being concerned over at 16 Hz for others to debate. What is pertinent is that in the average listening room, with a longest dimension of 18 feet, cabin gain at a rate of 12dB/octave kicks in at 28 Hz. That means that a Tuba 18 corner loaded will maintain 90dB/watt sensitivity below 28Hz in a room of that size. That exceeds THX specs. Size: 3.5 cu ft. Cost to build: $60, give or take, including the driver.
As to the original question: Should you consider building? Why would you consider not? Even a Titanic kit from Parts Express is a far better option than a factory sub.
I'll leave the controversy over whether there is any program material worth being concerned over at 16 Hz for others to debate. What is pertinent is that in the average listening room, with a longest dimension of 18 feet, cabin gain at a rate of 12dB/octave kicks in at 28 Hz. That means that a Tuba 18 corner loaded will maintain 90dB/watt sensitivity below 28Hz in a room of that size. That exceeds THX specs. Size: 3.5 cu ft. Cost to build: $60, give or take, including the driver.
As to the original question: Should you consider building? Why would you consider not? Even a Titanic kit from Parts Express is a far better option than a factory sub.
WAD becareful with WinISD (alpha and beta)
It has given me wrong port lengths before I think.
I'd use Loudspeaker LAB to model a box once I've choosen a driver. It has many vented port allignments you can choose from. Only thing is that you have to reenter the information every time you start the program again if you have the demo version.
Also have you considered making a rectugular port instead of a round plastic port. I did this once (since I don't like the sound of ported speakers only once) and it turned out good. You don't have to buy ports (which aren't expense I guess, if that's what you look at). Also it looks better and I feel like they're more solid than plastic ports, but that probable makes no difference in sound.
Here's where I learned about rectangular ports http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials/ports/index.html
It has given me wrong port lengths before I think.
I'd use Loudspeaker LAB to model a box once I've choosen a driver. It has many vented port allignments you can choose from. Only thing is that you have to reenter the information every time you start the program again if you have the demo version.
Also have you considered making a rectugular port instead of a round plastic port. I did this once (since I don't like the sound of ported speakers only once) and it turned out good. You don't have to buy ports (which aren't expense I guess, if that's what you look at). Also it looks better and I feel like they're more solid than plastic ports, but that probable makes no difference in sound.
Here's where I learned about rectangular ports http://www.jlaudio.com/tutorials/ports/index.html
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