I have a brand new set of Scan-Speak D2905/970000 tweeters that I would like to put to good use in a 2-way project. I'm thinking about 15-18 liter box here. Crossed around 2kHz. Being a Scan-Speak fan, I've been looking at their Classic 8545K00 as well as the new Discovery 18W/8435G00 midwoofers.
I would like to keep the crossover and box simple, so no second order acoustic slopes, lattice networks, or stepped baffles. I'll be modeling a basic asymmetrical acoustic 2nd/3rd, or 3rd/4th design.
I'm after a "romantic" sound presentation. And I prefer the sound of speakers which follow the loudness curve more, or less. So a 1-2dB bump at 80Hz, 1-2dB dip at 500Hz, 1-2dB bump at 1kHz, 2dB dip at 4-6kHz, and 2dB bump at 10kHz.
Some of my favorite speakers include: Sonus Faber Stradivari, Bowers & Wilkins 802/800 Diamond, Dynaudio Confidence C2/C4 Platinum, Goldmund Epilogue 1, etc. Most of those speakers don't have a flat response, even though each company is capable of designing it (i.e. Bowers & Wilkins has two anechoic chambers).
So which of these two midwoofers do you guys prefer?
P.S. I'm aware that the Revelators and Illuminators are probably the best woofers on the market, but they are above what I'd like to spend on this project. Same goes for the wonderful Audio Technology drivers.
I would like to keep the crossover and box simple, so no second order acoustic slopes, lattice networks, or stepped baffles. I'll be modeling a basic asymmetrical acoustic 2nd/3rd, or 3rd/4th design.
I'm after a "romantic" sound presentation. And I prefer the sound of speakers which follow the loudness curve more, or less. So a 1-2dB bump at 80Hz, 1-2dB dip at 500Hz, 1-2dB bump at 1kHz, 2dB dip at 4-6kHz, and 2dB bump at 10kHz.
Some of my favorite speakers include: Sonus Faber Stradivari, Bowers & Wilkins 802/800 Diamond, Dynaudio Confidence C2/C4 Platinum, Goldmund Epilogue 1, etc. Most of those speakers don't have a flat response, even though each company is capable of designing it (i.e. Bowers & Wilkins has two anechoic chambers).
So which of these two midwoofers do you guys prefer?
P.S. I'm aware that the Revelators and Illuminators are probably the best woofers on the market, but they are above what I'd like to spend on this project. Same goes for the wonderful Audio Technology drivers.
Last edited:
ridikas,
I would say, buy a greater value driver for the money and a little easier to
work with, which would be a discovery unit. Best to design it for a flat FR
and then use active EQ-ing to your taste.
I would say, buy a greater value driver for the money and a little easier to
work with, which would be a discovery unit. Best to design it for a flat FR
and then use active EQ-ing to your taste.
I've been looking at Zaph's distortion measurements and some Klippel data:
- Satory MW16 has the lowest midrange distortion. But slightly worse bass than the Revelators. Also, CSD is not as good as any Scan-Speak.
- Discovery 18W/8434 has average distortion in the midrange, but excellent bass performance and high Qms. But I wish it had a better xmax.
- Scan-Speak 8545 has no distortion data online, but I'm guessing it's similar to Usher 8945 and class leading. Great xmax too. This woofer was used in Sonus Faber's Electa Amator II and all the way to Aida. I think it sounds lovely, but I have heard comments of upper midrange harshness.
- Scan-Speak Revelator 18W/8531 looks incredible on paper, but it seems to need a 20+ liter box.
- Scan-Speak Revelator 15W/8530 coated low Qts has been universally acclaimed online as a magical driver. Class leading distortion, xmax, and flat 38Hz in a 15 liter box. I've no doubt this is the best 5" on the planet. It's over my budget, but I may have to extend it if you guys think it's that good.
I would love to hear from someone who has heard one or more of these drivers and who could detail the sonic qualities and differences of each.
- Satory MW16 has the lowest midrange distortion. But slightly worse bass than the Revelators. Also, CSD is not as good as any Scan-Speak.
- Discovery 18W/8434 has average distortion in the midrange, but excellent bass performance and high Qms. But I wish it had a better xmax.
- Scan-Speak 8545 has no distortion data online, but I'm guessing it's similar to Usher 8945 and class leading. Great xmax too. This woofer was used in Sonus Faber's Electa Amator II and all the way to Aida. I think it sounds lovely, but I have heard comments of upper midrange harshness.
- Scan-Speak Revelator 18W/8531 looks incredible on paper, but it seems to need a 20+ liter box.
- Scan-Speak Revelator 15W/8530 coated low Qts has been universally acclaimed online as a magical driver. Class leading distortion, xmax, and flat 38Hz in a 15 liter box. I've no doubt this is the best 5" on the planet. It's over my budget, but I may have to extend it if you guys think it's that good.
I would love to hear from someone who has heard one or more of these drivers and who could detail the sonic qualities and differences of each.
I think you are looking at the Satori wrong. It is class leading distortion. I have heard it and it is a wonderful driver. My comparisons are the ScanSpeak Revelators and the C Quenze 18h. You can not go wrong with any of them. All three will be limited by your implementation.
You are getting into nuances at this level. I personally would choose the C Quenze. It just does something very right(personal opinion). That being said, I have listened to version of the Kalasan speaker, by Jeff Bagby, built for my brother, for many months, and i can say you would never regret choosing it. The Scan Speak offers better LF bass vs the others, but I would say that the Satori and C Quenze are more refined and detailed in the midrange. THe C Quenze would be the best as a pure midrange. The Satori would be the best overall for a two way. The Scan Speak would go lower if used in a two way. These are ALL top quality woofers.
It would be whatever you make out of it. You kind of selected a
good engine for the car, but have not decided about the rest of it.
I would not be sure that the Satori's bass is that much worse than the Scans. Note that the drivers are being measured free-air in Zaph's measurements, so there is a large difference between drivers in the level of the fundamental (and therefore excursion of the driver) below 100Hz. At 40Hz the Satori is +5dB on the Scan 8531. The level of the harmonics shown in Zaphs plots are not relative to the fundamental i.e. if the fundamental is shown at -10dB and F2 at -30dB, the harmonic is 20dB below the fundamental. Not only does this mean at 40Hz the harmonics are effectively 5dB lower in relation to the fundamental in the Satori plot, but if you drop the level of the fundamental 5dB to make the excursion comparable to the Scan, the harmonics will probably drop a further 10dB or more. At 40Hz, the harmonic distortion is therefore probably lower for the Satori than the Scan, even though initial glance at the plot would have you believing otherwise.
It's the same reason why the distortion of the Usher 8945 drivers look incredibly low <100Hz. While they are still exceptional drivers, they aren't quite as incredible as the plots would initially have you imagine.
Even at 100Hz where the fundamental is at a similar level for both drivers, there is no clear cut winner either. Satori has higher 2nd order but much lower 3rd order. This will probably sound better.
Last edited:
Revelators have greater bass extension because of the much larger Sd. You`re right - the 18W/8531 needs a large box, depending on tunning it may fall between 30-38l (simulation would suggest a lower number but its somewhat inaccurate ). I very much like the papyrus cones of the SB drivers, the resonance is light and easily controlled in the crossover, they sound more detailed to me compared to the Revelator. I think you should consider the SB Acoustics NRXC woofers or give a try to he Vifa NE line ( never auditioned one of these but they look good on paper ), price/performance ratio is very high on both.
Last edited:
So after extensively listening to Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution, I've decided to use the 8545K00 midwoofers. Guarneri' use Scan-Speak 18W/8545K00 and 2905/970000 and they sounded beautiful. Probably the best two way that I've ever heard.
I'll be modeling a crossover, but any and all help is appreciated. If you guys could post the actual Guarneri Evolution crossover, or decipher it from pictures it would be a great start.
Thanks again for all of the suggestions!
Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
More internal pictures here:
http://audio.com.pl/testy/sonus-faber-guarnieri-evolution:1
I'll be modeling a crossover, but any and all help is appreciated. If you guys could post the actual Guarneri Evolution crossover, or decipher it from pictures it would be a great start.
Thanks again for all of the suggestions!
Sonus Faber Guarneri Evolution loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
More internal pictures here:
http://audio.com.pl/testy/sonus-faber-guarnieri-evolution:1
Attachments
Last edited:
I highly doubt that Sonus Faber uses regular drivers, they are quite certainly custom made, at least the woofer is, seeing that phase (?) plug. The SF crossover was designed around the custom drivers, not the regular ones.
OTOH, I haven't searched, but I think you'll find some design for your drivers, they are real "classics".
Ralf
The drivers are probably modded slightly, but it would still be fun to get the crossover and model it with stock drivers to see how close in the ballpark it gets.
Attachments
Right, manufacturers simply have to say their units are custom built
and they are. Does that mean one can't make a clone with stock parts, no.
You don't need the filter schematic to be succesfull in building it.
Use the Stereophile measurements of individual driver responses
and insert the parts until the curves look "the same" and you will
have a well performing clone.
I'll continue the actual project here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/mult...0-d2905-970000-2-way-project.html#post4106579
- Status
- Not open for further replies.