Hi, just basically trying to figure out the cause of an issue that has been mentioned about an MTM I made recently. After doing multiple measurements of the speaker with the omnimic, and countless hours of listening, I gave the speaker to a friend to get their opinion on it. All of my checks and tests seemed good to me, but he came back to me saying that 'although the speaker is ridiculously clear and detailed' he finds it slightly 'boring', he feels that it has no punch and is missing something. Now the FR is flat to within 2db, the box is MDF clad in copper making it extremely solid, it feels like knocking on concrete, and the crossover has good quality parts and wire, so what could be the cause of his disappointment in it? It has a built in bluetooth amp (mono) which sounds good to my ears, and everyone else who has heard that model of speaker has loved it too, so I wonder, is it likely,
He's used to a lot of off the shelf speakers (he has a bose BT speaker atm) that exaggerate bass and treble in their crossovers? And so hearing an accurate speaker now seems lacking to him?
There's maybe EQ on his phone that is affecting the speakers response?
Box or port maybe too small and he's good at hearing that in the music, better than me?
Or should I have given the FR a more smiley face shape rather than flat to make it sound more exciting?
I really don't know, I realise your missing a lot of information here but I'm just trying to get a few ideas on things that I can check for when he returns the speaker, basically things that in general could cause a speaker to sound lacking in excitement even with the good quality xover parts and solid enclosure, any ideas would be appreciated as I really don't enjoy the feeling of disappointing someone. Thanks
He's used to a lot of off the shelf speakers (he has a bose BT speaker atm) that exaggerate bass and treble in their crossovers? And so hearing an accurate speaker now seems lacking to him?
There's maybe EQ on his phone that is affecting the speakers response?
Box or port maybe too small and he's good at hearing that in the music, better than me?
Or should I have given the FR a more smiley face shape rather than flat to make it sound more exciting?
I really don't know, I realise your missing a lot of information here but I'm just trying to get a few ideas on things that I can check for when he returns the speaker, basically things that in general could cause a speaker to sound lacking in excitement even with the good quality xover parts and solid enclosure, any ideas would be appreciated as I really don't enjoy the feeling of disappointing someone. Thanks
Was this your own design or were you following someone else's known good design?
Do you have enough experience making quasi-anechoic measurements to ensure that they are accurate?
Have you compared the frequency balance of your speaker directly to a highly regarded speaker at nearly the same location in-room? Or to good headphones?
How low does the speaker play?
How much power does the Bluetooth amplifier have? Is this a rating at 10% distortion or something more reasonable? Does it have an external power supply?
Is this a single speaker or a pair? Single speakers often sound light in the bass compared to a pair with the same frequency response.
Do you have enough experience making quasi-anechoic measurements to ensure that they are accurate?
Have you compared the frequency balance of your speaker directly to a highly regarded speaker at nearly the same location in-room? Or to good headphones?
How low does the speaker play?
How much power does the Bluetooth amplifier have? Is this a rating at 10% distortion or something more reasonable? Does it have an external power supply?
Is this a single speaker or a pair? Single speakers often sound light in the bass compared to a pair with the same frequency response.
I find that speakers which sound 'exciting' soon become fatiguing and not suitable for long listening sessions. Comparing a slightly 'laid back' or neutral sounding speaker with an 'exciting' one(s), it might seem that the former is 'boring', but I'd rather have a more relaxed but still detailed sound.
Room issues aside, we have a set of DIY speakers which measure + or - 3dB according to their designer and another which has very even and flat treble response. Both sound great and no-one who's listened to them finds them dull.
However, if I walk into a big box store which has 'exciting' speakers playing some brass or something, for about a minute I think 'these sound good'.
Geoff
Room issues aside, we have a set of DIY speakers which measure + or - 3dB according to their designer and another which has very even and flat treble response. Both sound great and no-one who's listened to them finds them dull.
However, if I walk into a big box store which has 'exciting' speakers playing some brass or something, for about a minute I think 'these sound good'.
Geoff
Your friend likely would not recognize or prefer an accurate speaker when listening to one.
Especially if the rest of the system is mediocre.
Especially if the rest of the system is mediocre.
Yes, my own design, I've been making speakers for around 5 years now, this is my 4th model, I have a wharfdale diamond speaker that I test before I test my own, to make sure I get the right response on that by comparing it to other measurements taken on reviews etc, before I trust the measurements I take of my own and to check the calibration. The speaker has an f3 of 48hz, it's only a small model, and I've also played songs through sony headphones and then the exact same song through my speakers and nothing stands out as being lacking in any of the models as far as I can tell.
The amp is just a cheap bt mono board from amazon with a rating of 30 watts at 16v 5a, but again, it sounds clean.
That is how I prefer my speakers too, but it seems he likes the big bass high treble kind, which is what makes me think it is just a big change for him to have one that is more accurate to the recordings. I hope that is the case as I'm at a bit of a loss as to what I might have done wrong, maybe making him one with the response he likes may make him happier. I suggested he tries to use EQ on his phone unil he likes how it sounds then I can see the changes he made and at what frequency, but other than that it's hard to figure out with a comment like ' it's missing something'
You are not hearing just the speaker itself, but instead the speaker and the built-in amp. And a cheap amp at that. So, take out the amp, add some standard speaker connectors, and let your friend try it again using his amp instead.
A generalization:
To be considered when there are differences of opinion of how a single product "sounds" (a loudspeaker; an amplifier; etc.).
The sound that a Hi Fi Stereo System produces is Either Positive Synergy or Negative Synergy.
The key word here is . . . System.
----------------------------------------
System Part one:
The instrumentalist, singer, microphones, studio, recorder technology, production house, and from that point . . . the LP or CD the listener purchases according to his/her kind(s) of music the listener prefers.
System Part two:
The turntable, tone arm, phono cartridge, and phono preamp; or CD player, DAC, etc. The preamp, power amp, and loudspeakers; and cabling; the provider of the power mains (good or bad power quality and repeatable voltage levels).
System Part three:
The listening room dimensions, reflective surfaces and absorptive surfaces, loudspeaker placement and toe-in or not, etc.
System Part four:
The Listener. His ears, his brain, his opinions.
No two listeners are the same.
Often, it is a good idea to bring a product from your system (amplifier, loudspeaker, etc.) to another venue.
You have already done that.
Now, bring it to 2 or 3 more places.
And be sure you attend the listening sessions at all those venues.
Often, it is helpful, if it is practical . . . bring your complete system (parts one and two above) to other venues.
That puts a variable into the system; allows you to see if there is something that is particular to part three that might be a problem.
The power mains (System Part 2), is another variable that might not be the same at all venues.
--------------------------------
Our two local audio clubs bring one or more products to the monthly co-meeting . . . preamps, DACs, amplifiers, loudspeakers, etc.
Sometimes the venue's amplifier is used, sometimes the venue's speaker is used, sometimes both.
24 years ago, I dragged one of my vacuum amplifiers to a local stereo dealer. They allowed me to hear my amplifier on a set of ProAc loudspeakers I was interested in purchasing, but I needed to be sure.
Then, they allowed me to bring the demo ProAc's To My Home, to listen for 2 days when the store was closed.
. . . $ale! (Sale!)
The only thing a dealer can do is say yes or no, when you want to bring your product and play it at the dealers; and if helpful, to bring one of their products home with you to listen to it, just how you would be using it in your System.
Have Fun!
You have lots more research to do . . . go to other venues and listen.
And, have some audio fans come to your home and listen to your system.
Every now and then, we have an Audio Crawl.
3 club members agree to a listening test in their homes.
15 audio fans show up at a parking lot. The organizer assigns 3 groups of 5.
group one goes to A, B, C homes
group two goes to B, C, A homes
group three goess to C, A, B homes
Round robbin listening sessions, 45 minutes each, 3 trips of 15 minutes.
You get the idea.
After 3 listening sessions, then they all meet back at the local watering hole.
To be considered when there are differences of opinion of how a single product "sounds" (a loudspeaker; an amplifier; etc.).
The sound that a Hi Fi Stereo System produces is Either Positive Synergy or Negative Synergy.
The key word here is . . . System.
----------------------------------------
System Part one:
The instrumentalist, singer, microphones, studio, recorder technology, production house, and from that point . . . the LP or CD the listener purchases according to his/her kind(s) of music the listener prefers.
System Part two:
The turntable, tone arm, phono cartridge, and phono preamp; or CD player, DAC, etc. The preamp, power amp, and loudspeakers; and cabling; the provider of the power mains (good or bad power quality and repeatable voltage levels).
System Part three:
The listening room dimensions, reflective surfaces and absorptive surfaces, loudspeaker placement and toe-in or not, etc.
System Part four:
The Listener. His ears, his brain, his opinions.
No two listeners are the same.
Often, it is a good idea to bring a product from your system (amplifier, loudspeaker, etc.) to another venue.
You have already done that.
Now, bring it to 2 or 3 more places.
And be sure you attend the listening sessions at all those venues.
Often, it is helpful, if it is practical . . . bring your complete system (parts one and two above) to other venues.
That puts a variable into the system; allows you to see if there is something that is particular to part three that might be a problem.
The power mains (System Part 2), is another variable that might not be the same at all venues.
--------------------------------
Our two local audio clubs bring one or more products to the monthly co-meeting . . . preamps, DACs, amplifiers, loudspeakers, etc.
Sometimes the venue's amplifier is used, sometimes the venue's speaker is used, sometimes both.
24 years ago, I dragged one of my vacuum amplifiers to a local stereo dealer. They allowed me to hear my amplifier on a set of ProAc loudspeakers I was interested in purchasing, but I needed to be sure.
Then, they allowed me to bring the demo ProAc's To My Home, to listen for 2 days when the store was closed.
. . . $ale! (Sale!)
The only thing a dealer can do is say yes or no, when you want to bring your product and play it at the dealers; and if helpful, to bring one of their products home with you to listen to it, just how you would be using it in your System.
Have Fun!
You have lots more research to do . . . go to other venues and listen.
And, have some audio fans come to your home and listen to your system.
Every now and then, we have an Audio Crawl.
3 club members agree to a listening test in their homes.
15 audio fans show up at a parking lot. The organizer assigns 3 groups of 5.
group one goes to A, B, C homes
group two goes to B, C, A homes
group three goess to C, A, B homes
Round robbin listening sessions, 45 minutes each, 3 trips of 15 minutes.
You get the idea.
After 3 listening sessions, then they all meet back at the local watering hole.
If you're happy with the sound, you haven't done anything 'wrong': the only person who needs to be happy is you.
If someone else doesn't like the sound, that's their problem.
Geoff
If someone else doesn't like the sound, that's their problem.
Geoff
That’s cancellation from the cross path floor bounce……always a problem with an MTM……in his room at his listening distance there’s likely a major suckout around 120hz.…..I ALWAYS build MTM as 2.5 way
I'm trying to understand the concept of Positive and Negative Synergy with respect to the sound that a Hi-Fi System produces.
I do understand it, for example, applied to a team of people and their interaction with each other. It essentially means that the performance of each individual in the group is made better and enhanced by the others.
But it really makes no sense trying to apply it a group of electronic devices. The amplifier does not change the performance of the CD player or any other device in the system. Each device performs exactly the same as it would in a completely different system that had, for example, a different amplifier.
You can certainly apply the concept of synergy to human beings, but I can't see how it can be applied to pieces of electronic equipment. Makes no sense.
An accurate speaker shouldn't sound 'accurate', and certainly not that accurate. Not yet sure what to say beyond that, but looking for clues in what is written.
Re:'the FR is flat to within 2db' - that could be your problem, most people prefer a falling response,
check out some of Erin's videos, & compare the 'estimated in room response' with his actual measurements:
https://www.youtube.com/@ErinsAudioCorner/videos
check out some of Erin's videos, & compare the 'estimated in room response' with his actual measurements:
https://www.youtube.com/@ErinsAudioCorner/videos
People don't all hear the same things. They have varying tastes in music, and in music reproduction. One man's exciting is another man's fatiguing. You're asking us to guess blindfold, basically.
If you really want feedback on the design, you'll have to provide more information about it. (e.g. post the measurements and explain the measurement conditions. Tell us what the drivers are. Tell us the details of the crossover design and the enclosure design.)
If you really want feedback on the design, you'll have to provide more information about it. (e.g. post the measurements and explain the measurement conditions. Tell us what the drivers are. Tell us the details of the crossover design and the enclosure design.)
Does this friend have the same taste in women/model and colour of car/food dislikes/alcohol preference/listening level/TV programme choice/age/hearing response/haircut as you?
Whilst it can be gratifying (or not, sometimes) to get a second opinion on your build, there is little reason he would like exactly the same loudspeaker sound character as you...
He seems to have sown doubts in your mind which might be difficult to reverse, however if it's not broke - to your ear - don't fix it! I really wouldn't pay much attention to the comments of anybody who has a Bose bluetooth speaker as 'reference'! Remember that old BBC engineers considered that Bose was an acronym for "Buy Other Sound Equipment"...
classicalfan,
Synergy, def, 1. Combined Action Random House College Edition, 1968.
Synergy of components of a stereo:
Negative Synergy:
A vacuum tube preamplifier with a minimum rated load impedance of 10k Ohms, is connected to a power amplifier that has an input impedance of 600 Ohms: Negative Synergy.
A vacuum tube amplifier that has an output impedance of 2 Ohms, is connected to a 6 Ohm rated loudspeaker that has a minimum impedance of 3 Ohms at several different frequency bands: 20-40Hz, 150 to 300Hz, and 5kHz to 7kHz: Negative Synergy
These examples of Negative Synergy . . . Will Degrade the sound of the whole System.
You would be surprised how many Systems suffer to these or other in-compatible selections of component combinations.
There is nothing Human about Synergy here (other than the Human who did not pay attention to component compatibility).
Positive Synergy:
A vacuum tube amplifier with an output impedance of 2 Ohms, is connected to a 16 Ohm rated loudspeaker that has a minimum impedance of 9 Ohms, no less than 9 Ohms all the way from 20Hz to 20kHz: Positive Synergy.
I hope that explains the word Synergy as I have applied it to component stereo systems.
The Original Poster's loudspeaker seems to be on the Positive Synergy of things, when installed in your system.
Keep Listening Everybody!
Synergy, def, 1. Combined Action Random House College Edition, 1968.
Synergy of components of a stereo:
Negative Synergy:
A vacuum tube preamplifier with a minimum rated load impedance of 10k Ohms, is connected to a power amplifier that has an input impedance of 600 Ohms: Negative Synergy.
A vacuum tube amplifier that has an output impedance of 2 Ohms, is connected to a 6 Ohm rated loudspeaker that has a minimum impedance of 3 Ohms at several different frequency bands: 20-40Hz, 150 to 300Hz, and 5kHz to 7kHz: Negative Synergy
These examples of Negative Synergy . . . Will Degrade the sound of the whole System.
You would be surprised how many Systems suffer to these or other in-compatible selections of component combinations.
There is nothing Human about Synergy here (other than the Human who did not pay attention to component compatibility).
Positive Synergy:
A vacuum tube amplifier with an output impedance of 2 Ohms, is connected to a 16 Ohm rated loudspeaker that has a minimum impedance of 9 Ohms, no less than 9 Ohms all the way from 20Hz to 20kHz: Positive Synergy.
I hope that explains the word Synergy as I have applied it to component stereo systems.
The Original Poster's loudspeaker seems to be on the Positive Synergy of things, when installed in your system.
Keep Listening Everybody!
You are using the word Synergy to just mean good or bad combinations of components. But that's not what it means or how it should be used.
Synergy means that the overall performance of a group is enhanced due to a positive relationship between members that betters the performance of each one. This readily applies to people and even animals.
But it does not apply to inanimate objects, such as amplifiers and speakers.
Synergy means that the overall performance of a group is enhanced due to a positive relationship between members that betters the performance of each one. This readily applies to people and even animals.
But it does not apply to inanimate objects, such as amplifiers and speakers.
Yes I admit it's a cheap amp, but honestly it sounds pretty good, but I have been searching for a high quality bluetooth mono amp board for years, and it seems I just can't find any other than the one I fitted into this speaker. Do you (or anyone reading this) have any suggestions? Surely some company must make a high quality one that can be added to small builds without taking anything away from the sound. I do plan to do as you suggested once he returns it, and let him hear it on a better amp.
The reason he borrowed it is because he wants to buy one from me, but I needed to know what he liked so he isn't disappointed with it, the cost of my speakers is pretty high due to the enclosure style and crossover parts quality, so getting the sound right too is a must.
I think he meant more that he can hear background detail and depth to the music more than he has before, he said he felt it is 'too detailed and that the cabinet is too solid' he suggested I make a cabinet that gives more 'buzz' which is the complete opposite of how I make them tbh. I'm in no way saying that I make amazing speakers, I just try my best to improve with each model and try to get the best out of the music they play.
Lol at the bose comment 😂 and yes your right, I can't expect someone to like exactly what I like, I just have a bit of investigation to do to adapt it to his liking, I've always aimed for flat response so anything else is new to me and I'd have to do some tests to see what works. There may be something I can do to make my speakers more appealing to a wider range of people, but I'm not too sure yet.