Hi All,
there are many younger, and some not so young Members, who are enrolled in Classes for Electrical and Electronics study.
Should they be treated exactly the same as other Forum Members when they pose a question?
Should we as a DIY community answer their research and homework topics as we do for other Members, or should we guide them towards the correct research to "find their own answers" to the set task?
Should these Pupils and Students have to declare their status in their profile?
I believe that students and pupils should be required to declare their status.
I further believe we should not feed them the answers that their tutor has set as "their task" to solve.
Opinions please.
there are many younger, and some not so young Members, who are enrolled in Classes for Electrical and Electronics study.
Should they be treated exactly the same as other Forum Members when they pose a question?
Should we as a DIY community answer their research and homework topics as we do for other Members, or should we guide them towards the correct research to "find their own answers" to the set task?
Should these Pupils and Students have to declare their status in their profile?
I believe that students and pupils should be required to declare their status.
I further believe we should not feed them the answers that their tutor has set as "their task" to solve.
Opinions please.
Hi Andrew, yes I agree. But I'd go so far as to say we should try to use the same approach for all newbies.
Rather than giving the quick fix answer (which keeps them coming back for more), some carefully posed questions to get them thinking in the right direction I think is a good approach.
Obviously if someones asking the sort of question that shows that they have thought about it and are just seeking confirmation that they have come to the right conclusion that's a different story.
I've found that the best teachers have always been the ones that don't spoon feed, or simply give the answers, but instead give the right stimulus to allow the student to work it out for themselves.
I try to do it sometimes, but it is all to easy to be helpful and just give the answer!
I think the disclosure thing is good (if they volunteer it), but ultimately comes down to the students honour/ethics. edit: crossposted with pinkmouse, this line was basically alluding to his comment 🙂
Tony.
Rather than giving the quick fix answer (which keeps them coming back for more), some carefully posed questions to get them thinking in the right direction I think is a good approach.
Obviously if someones asking the sort of question that shows that they have thought about it and are just seeking confirmation that they have come to the right conclusion that's a different story.
I've found that the best teachers have always been the ones that don't spoon feed, or simply give the answers, but instead give the right stimulus to allow the student to work it out for themselves.
I try to do it sometimes, but it is all to easy to be helpful and just give the answer!
I think the disclosure thing is good (if they volunteer it), but ultimately comes down to the students honour/ethics. edit: crossposted with pinkmouse, this line was basically alluding to his comment 🙂
Tony.
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Yes, Newbies could have some form of declaration. I for instance am a complete Newbie when it comes to digital (and many other topics I am probably unaware of).
Would compulsory infilling of at least part of the profile be the next step to accepting any new Member beyond the read only rights' limitation we have at present?
Some while ago I proposed discussion on the idea of having a "test" for some or all of the areas in our Thread sections. Passing some or all of these "tests" would promote a Member out of Newbie status (in that test topic).
I also believe that very young Members should declare their age. Could it be all under 14's or under 16's or under xx? must declare their Date of Birth (DOB).
The compulsory questions in the profile could be supported by the Applicant's declaration that the answers are true and accurate.
Would compulsory infilling of at least part of the profile be the next step to accepting any new Member beyond the read only rights' limitation we have at present?
Some while ago I proposed discussion on the idea of having a "test" for some or all of the areas in our Thread sections. Passing some or all of these "tests" would promote a Member out of Newbie status (in that test topic).
I also believe that very young Members should declare their age. Could it be all under 14's or under 16's or under xx? must declare their Date of Birth (DOB).
The compulsory questions in the profile could be supported by the Applicant's declaration that the answers are true and accurate.
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You can desire lots of things, not all are possible, and indeed, in the fulfilment, may have undesired side effects.
There is already a similar thread here, but it won't be visible to everyone.
I don't think a declaration in the Profile would work, as we generally don't check it, and it might change anyway. Also, a student might ask questions about their hobby too. No, all that is needed is a request that they declare the origin of their question at the time they pose it rather than waiting for us to deduce that it is homework. There are some telltale features of a typical student question, but I won't say what they are as I don't want to give the game away!
It cannot be effectively policed, but it could be mentioned in the Rules or Q&A. Just a request that students asking about assignments or project work declare this, and accept that we will happily aid their understanding but not do their work for them. There could be some small penalty for students who flout the rule, but I leave that to the mods to argue about.
I don't think a declaration in the Profile would work, as we generally don't check it, and it might change anyway. Also, a student might ask questions about their hobby too. No, all that is needed is a request that they declare the origin of their question at the time they pose it rather than waiting for us to deduce that it is homework. There are some telltale features of a typical student question, but I won't say what they are as I don't want to give the game away!
It cannot be effectively policed, but it could be mentioned in the Rules or Q&A. Just a request that students asking about assignments or project work declare this, and accept that we will happily aid their understanding but not do their work for them. There could be some small penalty for students who flout the rule, but I leave that to the mods to argue about.
Isn't it better to provide information as easily as possible, such that they in the end know the answer and can learn from it?
( btw I'm a student though not in electronics, computer science here 🙂 )
One of my professors in math class had this philosophy when giving home assignments: He didn't care if a student's friend solved the problem for them if they afterwards understood the solution and could reproduce it.
( btw I'm a student though not in electronics, computer science here 🙂 )
One of my professors in math class had this philosophy when giving home assignments: He didn't care if a student's friend solved the problem for them if they afterwards understood the solution and could reproduce it.
As a former university professor, I am of two minds on this. Yes students should be encouraged to find their own solutions, but guidance from more experienced members is a valuable teaching tool in itself. Anything which encourages an interest in audio is valuable IMHO. Regards John Dozier
Two snags with that. It might work with a bright honest student, but not a dim lazy one. It won't work with courses which count homework towards the final mark - this means many courses in the UK.OllBoll said:
We should not be interested in people merely reproducing solutions, but being able to produce solutions to different but related problems. Understanding a solution is a necessary but not sufficient condition for this, as you also have to know possible alternative methods and be able to evaluate their suitability. This is where things get creative. In my experience, it is also where many modern students fail.
If somebody wants to waste their educational opportunity by cheating on their homework, that's their business. Think of it as evolution in action.
This is as much a waste of time as the buttons on pornsites that ask you to verify that you're over 18.
I can't help but feel that the idea springs from a kind of controlling attitude that produces offspring with no self-control and a tendency to rebel.
I don't spoon-feed anybody information myself, but I'd prefer it to be left to my discretion as to whether I do.
There's already quite enough needless censorship on the forum protecting the sensibilities of fantasists, head-in-the-sanders and wishful thinkers.
Please, don't let's start down this road.
This is as much a waste of time as the buttons on pornsites that ask you to verify that you're over 18.
I can't help but feel that the idea springs from a kind of controlling attitude that produces offspring with no self-control and a tendency to rebel.
I don't spoon-feed anybody information myself, but I'd prefer it to be left to my discretion as to whether I do.
There's already quite enough needless censorship on the forum protecting the sensibilities of fantasists, head-in-the-sanders and wishful thinkers.
Please, don't let's start down this road.
Master Al,
i say, what an odd question.
Mr Quelch, anyone ?
Yours truly,
ex-PBBS victim.
Attachments
Would you like to fly in an aircraft or drive across a bridge which had significant parts of its design done by someone who blagged his way through university?counter culture said:
that' sounds like an attitude brought about by "we have this many students and it pays my wages", rather than a desire to foster real learning of willing and/or able students.
Andrew
Interesting question, here's my opinion:
Is there really a problem that needs to be solved? Do we really think that DiyAudio posts result in some non deserving students receiving an EE degree? My opinion is no.
I see these threads and posts as already forcing a student to "work" at interpreting the correct answer. Simple questions still seem to generate numerous answers and typically start some tangent or detailed discussion. Answers typically come from various points of view and are often abbreviated in some form, all which leave the student some additional homework.
I think that the biggest benefit a student may get is to actually see the enthusiasm in the replies and follow up discussions.
Not to mention how would the forum "Police" the replies to an allowed student question?
The concept of asking Newbee's to take test's for specific forums just seems to be completely counter to the existing open and diverse exchanges. I haven't seen any impedance to a thread because of newbee type question.
Just my take on it,
Thanks
-Antonio
Interesting question, here's my opinion:
Is there really a problem that needs to be solved? Do we really think that DiyAudio posts result in some non deserving students receiving an EE degree? My opinion is no.
I see these threads and posts as already forcing a student to "work" at interpreting the correct answer. Simple questions still seem to generate numerous answers and typically start some tangent or detailed discussion. Answers typically come from various points of view and are often abbreviated in some form, all which leave the student some additional homework.
I think that the biggest benefit a student may get is to actually see the enthusiasm in the replies and follow up discussions.
Not to mention how would the forum "Police" the replies to an allowed student question?
The concept of asking Newbee's to take test's for specific forums just seems to be completely counter to the existing open and diverse exchanges. I haven't seen any impedance to a thread because of newbee type question.
Just my take on it,
Thanks
-Antonio
Whether it's a 17-year old student, or a 70-yr old design engineer, anybody bringing a question into a forum like this should give some indication of what he has already done to find an answer or solve the problem. If there's no apparent effort on the part of the original poster to solve his own problem, he should expect a comparable effort from the Forum members to solve it for him.
(To be honest, I don't recall seeing any posts in THIS Forum that seemed to be somebody asking for a free handout without giving any effort on his part. I have been in some Forums where posters almost demand a solution delivered on a silver platter (or at least a B-size formatted drawing), and delivered by a scarlet-coated postillion.)
I have spent quite a bit of time on both sides of the classroom podium . . . In at least 95% of the cases, a homework problem can be spotted before you finish reading the first sentence. Individual instructors have their own interpretations of what constitutes "doing your own work", and what is a breach of integrity. Since we don't know the particular policy a student is working under, I'd follow the same guidance for homework problems as I gave above: an honest effort to comprehend the problem and find a solution merits respect and assistance (short of outright stating the answer); a "just-gimme-the-answer" approach is worthy of scorn and ridicule.
I'm generally opposed to any system that suggests a hierarchy, pecking-order, or elitism. (I particularly detest the term "newbie" as condescending at best and derogatory at worst.) I certainly wouldn't make chronological age a significant factor in such a system! We are all novices in some topics and masters of others. Being able to quickly scan the first line or two of a Forum member's recent posts will probably tell you more about the person's knowledge and abilities than any test or rating system.
Dale
(To be honest, I don't recall seeing any posts in THIS Forum that seemed to be somebody asking for a free handout without giving any effort on his part. I have been in some Forums where posters almost demand a solution delivered on a silver platter (or at least a B-size formatted drawing), and delivered by a scarlet-coated postillion.)
I have spent quite a bit of time on both sides of the classroom podium . . . In at least 95% of the cases, a homework problem can be spotted before you finish reading the first sentence. Individual instructors have their own interpretations of what constitutes "doing your own work", and what is a breach of integrity. Since we don't know the particular policy a student is working under, I'd follow the same guidance for homework problems as I gave above: an honest effort to comprehend the problem and find a solution merits respect and assistance (short of outright stating the answer); a "just-gimme-the-answer" approach is worthy of scorn and ridicule.
I'm generally opposed to any system that suggests a hierarchy, pecking-order, or elitism. (I particularly detest the term "newbie" as condescending at best and derogatory at worst.) I certainly wouldn't make chronological age a significant factor in such a system! We are all novices in some topics and masters of others. Being able to quickly scan the first line or two of a Forum member's recent posts will probably tell you more about the person's knowledge and abilities than any test or rating system.
Dale
I have seen a few. I won't give examples because I don't want to alert lazy students to how we spot them. Of course, there may also be lots of diligent students asking good questions in order to enhance their knowledge. They will mostly look like any other question so we don't need to spot them.dchisholm said:
I don't particularly like the term "newbie" but it has some usefulness. The main snag with it is that it doesn't distinguish between someone with no knowledge at all (and sometimes no background science either), and someone lacking specific knowledge (e.g. an experienced RF chip designer now making his first attempt at valve audio).
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