Porsche would have entered F1 if Audi had blocked its Le Mans program - Autoblog
Autosport reports that just as Porsche was merging fully into the Volkswagen Group, Zuffenhausen was weighing its options for a factory racing program. Le Mans was its favorite, which makes sense, as it remains far and away the most successful constructor in the history of the famous endurance race. But the strategists at Porsche were worried that its new corporate overlords at Volkswagen wouldn't support two LMP1 programs and would favor Audi, which has positively dominated the modern era of endurance racing, coming second only to Porsche in the number of Le Mans victories it has scored to date.
Autosport reports that just as Porsche was merging fully into the Volkswagen Group, Zuffenhausen was weighing its options for a factory racing program. Le Mans was its favorite, which makes sense, as it remains far and away the most successful constructor in the history of the famous endurance race. But the strategists at Porsche were worried that its new corporate overlords at Volkswagen wouldn't support two LMP1 programs and would favor Audi, which has positively dominated the modern era of endurance racing, coming second only to Porsche in the number of Le Mans victories it has scored to date.
Love this one ...
Porsche's Plan B was reportedly to head into Formula One, although it isn't clear if the German automaker was intent on starting its own team, buying an existing one or merely providing engines to other teams. Porsche fielded its own cars in F1 in the late 1950s and early 60s, and returned as an engine supplier with TAG to power McLaren in the 1980s, powering Niki Lauda and Alain Prost to the World Championship in 1984 and 1985.
Conveniently leaving out their disastrous V12 supplied to Footworks ..
Porsche's Plan B was reportedly to head into Formula One, although it isn't clear if the German automaker was intent on starting its own team, buying an existing one or merely providing engines to other teams. Porsche fielded its own cars in F1 in the late 1950s and early 60s, and returned as an engine supplier with TAG to power McLaren in the 1980s, powering Niki Lauda and Alain Prost to the World Championship in 1984 and 1985.
Conveniently leaving out their disastrous V12 supplied to Footworks ..
I doubt very much that VW Group has anything much to say as to where Porsche might want to race.
Reason being that Porsche Automobil Holding SE who own Porsche AG are also the majority shareholder of VW Group. VW Group Chairman Ferdinand Piëch is the cousin of Porsche Chairman Wolfgang Porsche, Martin Winterkorn is the CEO of both Porsche AG and VW Group. Basically the Porsche/Piëch family owns 33.7% of VW shares but a total of 53% of the voting rights and the federal german state of Lower Saxony owns a further 20% but abstain from voting.
Reason being that Porsche Automobil Holding SE who own Porsche AG are also the majority shareholder of VW Group. VW Group Chairman Ferdinand Piëch is the cousin of Porsche Chairman Wolfgang Porsche, Martin Winterkorn is the CEO of both Porsche AG and VW Group. Basically the Porsche/Piëch family owns 33.7% of VW shares but a total of 53% of the voting rights and the federal german state of Lower Saxony owns a further 20% but abstain from voting.
Yes and Piech , supports Audi more thru VAG, hence the sidestep. Remember Piech was removed from Porsche, because of his racing ambitions and when he moved to VAG, had vowed he would make Audi number 1 at Leman's, no coincidence Porsche stopped racing at Lemans after Audi started their run.
I will speculate and say from experiences and what i know of Piech, he would have bagged Weissach if there was only funding for 1 team...
Audi Motorsports .....
I will speculate and say from experiences and what i know of Piech, he would have bagged Weissach if there was only funding for 1 team...
Audi Motorsports .....
Piëch is at VW Group because after some near disastrous decisions about Porsche's future direction in the '70s the family decided to amend the Porsche AG constitution thus that no family member could ever be involved with management of Porsche AG.
Ferdinand Piëch joined Audi in '72 or so as engineer and worked his way up to chairman, all the while owning 10% of Porsche but not allowed to work there (he was responsible for the mighty 917).
Do you really think that it is in any way coincidental that Porsche retired from top level Le Mans competition after winning in '98 and Audi first entered in '99?
Michael Pfadenhauer, the guy who designed the Audi R8R is now head of Aerodynamics at Porsche. In truth there was always a lot of cross-fertilizing going on between Audi and Porsche, 924s and 944s were made by Audi in Neckarsulm.
Then there is the VW-Porsche 914 (the VW part was dropped for the north american market) and decades of Porsche designing engines for VW.
The companies never were completely separate in the strictest sense.
Ferdinand Piëch joined Audi in '72 or so as engineer and worked his way up to chairman, all the while owning 10% of Porsche but not allowed to work there (he was responsible for the mighty 917).
Do you really think that it is in any way coincidental that Porsche retired from top level Le Mans competition after winning in '98 and Audi first entered in '99?
Michael Pfadenhauer, the guy who designed the Audi R8R is now head of Aerodynamics at Porsche. In truth there was always a lot of cross-fertilizing going on between Audi and Porsche, 924s and 944s were made by Audi in Neckarsulm.
Then there is the VW-Porsche 914 (the VW part was dropped for the north american market) and decades of Porsche designing engines for VW.
The companies never were completely separate in the strictest sense.
There are countless funny stories about Ferdinand Piëch as head of Porsche Motorsport.
As a small company, made the legendary 917 engine with two six-cylinder boxer engines taken from a 911, Hans Mezger did it.
It is said that the press was invited to visit the factory, in the office of Piëch had a properly reduced photo of the "secret" engine, too small to be true, meanwhile, a worker passing with the real engine that in the distance looked so small as in the picture, of course, all was a joke to Italian journalists that they ran with gossip until Don Enzo Ferrari. 😀😀
He is an old fox, all marketing...😉
As a small company, made the legendary 917 engine with two six-cylinder boxer engines taken from a 911, Hans Mezger did it.
It is said that the press was invited to visit the factory, in the office of Piëch had a properly reduced photo of the "secret" engine, too small to be true, meanwhile, a worker passing with the real engine that in the distance looked so small as in the picture, of course, all was a joke to Italian journalists that they ran with gossip until Don Enzo Ferrari. 😀😀
He is an old fox, all marketing...😉
Racing is marketing as the old saying goes: Win on Sunday, sell on Monday.
Porsche and VW Group have been careful to never compete directly against each other.
When Porsche raced Le Mans there were no Audis competing against them and vice versa.
Also when the Quattro became a bit long in the tooth to win rallys the decision was made to not persevere with Audi and use the Group B Porsche 959 instead. Unfortunately Group B was abandoned before the 959 was ready.
They started racing Audis at Le Mans because on the one hand Porsche winning all the time got a bit tedious but mainly it is because they were planning on using diesel years before they actually did and unlike VW/Audi Porsche had no diesel cars to sell.
That said they did have a slight detour when they were promoting Bentley.
VW/Audi/Porsche just bolted a roof to the existing Audi R8R and called it a Bentley.
I have no doubt that Porsche was contemplating going to F1 but only because they did not want to compete with Audi. Porsche has practically no tradition in F1 so eventually they decided to use Porsche to race petrol engines and Audi to use diesel.
Bottom line it was practically impossible to separate Porsche Racing from Audi Racing even way before the Porsche/Piëch family bought a controlling interest in VW Group.
Btw Ferdinand Piëch knows his stuff besides racing. When he took over as head of VW Group they were 3 months away from bankruptcy and just look at VW Group now!
Porsche and VW Group have been careful to never compete directly against each other.
When Porsche raced Le Mans there were no Audis competing against them and vice versa.
Also when the Quattro became a bit long in the tooth to win rallys the decision was made to not persevere with Audi and use the Group B Porsche 959 instead. Unfortunately Group B was abandoned before the 959 was ready.
They started racing Audis at Le Mans because on the one hand Porsche winning all the time got a bit tedious but mainly it is because they were planning on using diesel years before they actually did and unlike VW/Audi Porsche had no diesel cars to sell.
That said they did have a slight detour when they were promoting Bentley.
VW/Audi/Porsche just bolted a roof to the existing Audi R8R and called it a Bentley.
I have no doubt that Porsche was contemplating going to F1 but only because they did not want to compete with Audi. Porsche has practically no tradition in F1 so eventually they decided to use Porsche to race petrol engines and Audi to use diesel.
Bottom line it was practically impossible to separate Porsche Racing from Audi Racing even way before the Porsche/Piëch family bought a controlling interest in VW Group.
Btw Ferdinand Piëch knows his stuff besides racing. When he took over as head of VW Group they were 3 months away from bankruptcy and just look at VW Group now!
F1 is a very peculiar animal. You can use anyone's engine but have to build your own chassis to compete. I.E. you can't sell the chassis. Porsche has always had a very strong market selling to independent teams. Build a two car team and it costs you millions. Build 50 racers a year and you race and make money. And while Audi may dominate LMP1. In GT Porsche has filled the grid for years.
The few times I've raced against Porsche's they've all gone out within a few laps.
The few times I've raced against Porsche's they've all gone out within a few laps.
I don't , this is what i implied , i should know i'm involved in the field and have met the man on more than one occasion , i was also present when he gave porsche ( 5 yrs ago) a tongue lashing on their last prototype attempt basically accusing them of being scared to race Audi.
So , yes, i do understand the speculation brought forward by the article...
After you hit them off the track 🙂 , Imo Porsche lacks F1 culture failure would be swift .... Again..!!!
What disastrous decision did Piech make( his 917 decision) at Porsche , do tell and best to stop mixing up the car divisions with Weissach or AS... They are run almost mutually exclusive ..
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Been hit, by Jack Roush's son at Gingerman, but I've never hit anyone. In SCCA amatuer racing Porsches are very expensive to build and maintain, hence they DNF a lot.
I don't think it was Ferdinand Piëch, it may well have been Wolfgang Porsche or others trying to fiddle around. There are quite a few Porsche/Piëchs about, not all of them capable engineers, designers or managers.
It is very hard to tell because while Porsche AG was a shareholders company the family owned 100% of them. That only changed some time in the '80s when one family member ran up huge personal debts and threatened to sell his 25th of shares to the highest bidder.
At that point Porsche sold 10% of shares on the open market but all of them were non-voting.
Over the years Porsche AG got close to bankruptcy a few times. Last time when they decided to drop the 911 and focus on the 944/928 type cars.
It is very hard to tell because while Porsche AG was a shareholders company the family owned 100% of them. That only changed some time in the '80s when one family member ran up huge personal debts and threatened to sell his 25th of shares to the highest bidder.
At that point Porsche sold 10% of shares on the open market but all of them were non-voting.
Over the years Porsche AG got close to bankruptcy a few times. Last time when they decided to drop the 911 and focus on the 944/928 type cars.
Thats just silly MR2 , there's not a more reliable racecar, any where, not because some fool with a porsche fails, dont eliminate 30 decades of success at all levels of motorsports .
Didn't Porsche try to aggressively take control of VW a few years back, but it all went a bit Pete Tong and actually the opposite happened?
Seems like 'Audi group' styling is generic now, esp Porsche interiors, Lamborghini and the new Ducati ..
Seems like 'Audi group' styling is generic now, esp Porsche interiors, Lamborghini and the new Ducati ..
Volkswagen AG first merged with and then took control of Porsche two years ago.
Porsche did have effective control over VW a few years ago but by increasing its share holding, they saddled themselves with a huge tax burden on Volkswagen AG options and it backfired.
53% of voting VW Group shares are now owned by Porsche Automobil Holdings SE which in turn is majority owned by the Porsche/Piëch family (75% by the family, the rest by a chinese company).
Officially both VW Group and Porsche AG are subsidiaries of PAHSE.
Not sure where the idea comes from that it went wrong.
It didn't go exactly as planned but the end result is pretty much the same.
It did mean that a number of hedge funds gone bust because they had sold between 50% and 80% of VW share futures when only 6% were ever available to be traded.
BMW is similarly family-owned.
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