I recently acquired a set of Paradigm 11se Mk-1s from a friends dad. I've read a lot of great things about them but I think they suck. Of course everyone's opinion is going to be different but I think something is wrong with them but I don't know what. Let me explain....
These Paradigms are the ones with the Vifa DT19 tweeter, the Vifa D75 dome mid (the original gray dome) and the milky clear plastic 10" woofer (I'm assuming an Energy driver). Now I know these are often considered forward sounding, and I agree, but in every other respect they are worse then every other speaker I have. The largest of the issues is the dull, lifeless, anemic bass. And yes, they very likely have the original crossovers. I know these are early Paradigms, but a custom spec'd woofer in this big box, with three big ports? Even Chris Roemer's Nano Neo MT speakers have deeper and more powerful bass. [It sounds like I am talking about blown woofers maybe, but they do work and there is no distortion...]
In direct comparison to Energy Pro22 Reference Connoisseurs, the Energy's have a wider, taller, deeper sound stage, tighter imaging, and higher resolution. The 7" pro22 woofers have considerably more and deeper bass, with much more life and texture. My specific Pro22s have Solen caps in the crossover but I bet they are 15-20 years old.
The same impressions apply to my ADC 303x speakers (with brand new crossovers), though not as deep in the bass as the Pro22s. My newer speakers are significantly better then the Paradigm, but I just wanted to compare speakers from the same era. I've used tube and solidstate preamps and amps, even a tube/classD hybrid amp....same impressions. The Paradigms simply do not match up to any other speaker I own.
Normally I would just say they are not what I am looking for but everything I read on line in nearly every form suggests they should be at least equal if not better than the Reference Connoissurs.
So what do you think? Could the Paradigms be ranking so low just from the old crossover, or do you think they honestly are worse than the Pro22s and ADC303x's (with modern crossover parts)? Something else wrong with them?
[for reference, I appreciate a darker speaker with great soundstaging higher then tonality or analytical qualities. I listen to classic rock/modern rock/pop/classical at mid 90s db's]
These Paradigms are the ones with the Vifa DT19 tweeter, the Vifa D75 dome mid (the original gray dome) and the milky clear plastic 10" woofer (I'm assuming an Energy driver). Now I know these are often considered forward sounding, and I agree, but in every other respect they are worse then every other speaker I have. The largest of the issues is the dull, lifeless, anemic bass. And yes, they very likely have the original crossovers. I know these are early Paradigms, but a custom spec'd woofer in this big box, with three big ports? Even Chris Roemer's Nano Neo MT speakers have deeper and more powerful bass. [It sounds like I am talking about blown woofers maybe, but they do work and there is no distortion...]
In direct comparison to Energy Pro22 Reference Connoisseurs, the Energy's have a wider, taller, deeper sound stage, tighter imaging, and higher resolution. The 7" pro22 woofers have considerably more and deeper bass, with much more life and texture. My specific Pro22s have Solen caps in the crossover but I bet they are 15-20 years old.
The same impressions apply to my ADC 303x speakers (with brand new crossovers), though not as deep in the bass as the Pro22s. My newer speakers are significantly better then the Paradigm, but I just wanted to compare speakers from the same era. I've used tube and solidstate preamps and amps, even a tube/classD hybrid amp....same impressions. The Paradigms simply do not match up to any other speaker I own.
Normally I would just say they are not what I am looking for but everything I read on line in nearly every form suggests they should be at least equal if not better than the Reference Connoissurs.
So what do you think? Could the Paradigms be ranking so low just from the old crossover, or do you think they honestly are worse than the Pro22s and ADC303x's (with modern crossover parts)? Something else wrong with them?
[for reference, I appreciate a darker speaker with great soundstaging higher then tonality or analytical qualities. I listen to classic rock/modern rock/pop/classical at mid 90s db's]
No, I have not opened them up or measured them yet. I do want to peer inside but I was hesitant because I didn't want to ruin the foam appearance ring on the woofer unless I knew it would either be ok or I was going to replace it. They do have short stands and I was using them. I heard the mid dome has some kind of plastic cup behind it but haven't visually verified that yet either. I can definitely set aside some time this weekend to see if I can pull the woofer out without ruining that trim ring. There isn't much to see through the ports besides some yellow fiberglass stuffing.
Mine do not have any stuffing visible from the ports.
Have they been "serviced", because stuffing around the ports will interfere with the bass reflex action and the low freq response. A quick nearfield measurement will tell alot.
Have they been "serviced", because stuffing around the ports will interfere with the bass reflex action and the low freq response. A quick nearfield measurement will tell alot.
I finally got around to pulling the woofers to look inside.
They look pretty stuffed - the port area looks clear on both - the angle is slightly higher on the second pic but there is just as much space around the ports as the first pic. I thought there was yellow fiberglass in there from my earlier post, but it was just a little chunk of yellow fibers.
They look pretty stuffed - the port area looks clear on both - the angle is slightly higher on the second pic but there is just as much space around the ports as the first pic. I thought there was yellow fiberglass in there from my earlier post, but it was just a little chunk of yellow fibers.
Interesting, thanks for posting the pics. How did you get the woofer trim off?
I just used a MagLight to light up the interior of mine (via the poly cone), and checked the ports. There is no insulation visible, just slightly yellowed wood. Yours look like they have some type of denim insulation.
Did you have an opportunity to measure them nearfield?
I just used a MagLight to light up the interior of mine (via the poly cone), and checked the ports. There is no insulation visible, just slightly yellowed wood. Yours look like they have some type of denim insulation.
Did you have an opportunity to measure them nearfield?
I just peeled the foam trim back just around the screw holes (8 of them) with a pick. Took my time, no damage. You can definitely see the insulation in mine through the cones with a flash light.
Hmm...interesting.....the presence of the insulation could definitely cause the sound I am experiencing. I wonder if someone in the past thought they had too much bass and tried to tame it...?
No, no nearfield measurements yet....means I have to move speakers around lol.
Hmm...interesting.....the presence of the insulation could definitely cause the sound I am experiencing. I wonder if someone in the past thought they had too much bass and tried to tame it...?
No, no nearfield measurements yet....means I have to move speakers around lol.
I hooked the Paradigms up last night and still feel the same. Something weird about them. Here are some screenshots from my phone of pink noise - taken via the Audiotools app on an iPhone 15 at 1 meter on tweeter axis. A FirstWatt Burning Amp 3 driving them.
You can clearly see the bass is shelved below 200hz. I contacted Paradigm to see if they had any documentation on these, especially regarding the type and amount of dampening inside, but they responded with no notes available. They offered of course it shouldn't be any problem to remove the stuffing until it sounds 'right' to me.
You can clearly see the bass is shelved below 200hz. I contacted Paradigm to see if they had any documentation on these, especially regarding the type and amount of dampening inside, but they responded with no notes available. They offered of course it shouldn't be any problem to remove the stuffing until it sounds 'right' to me.
The midrange at first glance looks like a Vifa D75MX, but it has a polymer dome, not a woven cloth like its supposed to have. I wonder if this is a similar plastic dome that Infinity used to use.
To my knowledge the D75s all had the plastic dome in the 90s, including Infinity. I wonder which one sounds better?
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The one in the iPhone....the Audiotools app was calibrated for it. I know for sure it can register at least up to 114db in the deep bass....according to Batman Dark Knight anyway...hehe....
I'll post measurements of my speakers for comparison to yours. I can't find my older measurements so I'll have to redo them. I use REW with UMIK-1 mic.
Two measurements. The LF is measured nearfield to minimize room mode effects and the full range measurement is gated 10ms at 1m.
The nearfield LF is probably the one more applicable measurement as it shows the port tuning freq. The full range measurement is showing an MF dip (1.5K-3KHz) that I don't remember seeing before. I should look into it.
The nearfield LF is probably the one more applicable measurement as it shows the port tuning freq. The full range measurement is showing an MF dip (1.5K-3KHz) that I don't remember seeing before. I should look into it.
Attachments
I'll have to post measurements later, but I completely opened up one side and removed half of the insulation to see what effect it had. There is, obviously, an increase in bass. I took measurements using my phone again and could see about 4db improvement overall in bass level above 32hz up to around 250hz. It looked nice but it's hard to tell listening side by side with no balance knob.
@DonVK - would you be willing to remove one midrange and peek inside yours and see what, if any, insulation there is? The mid is the easiest to remove and big enough hole to look around in.
The insulation in my pics above goes all the way to the top. The whole cabinet is as dense as it looks. It definitely does not look like it had anything glued to the walls. I have original crossovers, which I took a pic of as well.
@DonVK - would you be willing to remove one midrange and peek inside yours and see what, if any, insulation there is? The mid is the easiest to remove and big enough hole to look around in.
The insulation in my pics above goes all the way to the top. The whole cabinet is as dense as it looks. It definitely does not look like it had anything glued to the walls. I have original crossovers, which I took a pic of as well.
First two photos are left/right speakers, same conditions and measurement systems. Left speaker full insulation, right speaker now has half insulation.
Next two photos are 12” from rear ports, same left then right. Here the reduced insulation has a greater change.
This is the crossover from the right speaker.
Next two photos are 12” from rear ports, same left then right. Here the reduced insulation has a greater change.
This is the crossover from the right speaker.
With speakers as they are, with right side having half the insulation, the bass quality and quantity still not equal to the 7” units in my Energy Pro 22 Ref Connoisseurs. (Components and room locations being equal). Stable imaging, clear, and clean otherwise.
I was surprised when I opened it . There is insulation (loose, not dense) behind the midrange (see attached pics) from the mid cabinet brace up to the tweeter, but not around the woofer. There are 2 woofer spade lug strips, each on opposite sides of the woofer) with 2 spade connections per strip. One wire per strip, and it looks like only 2 voice coil wires. The XO looks the same, I see they used bipolar caps (aging issues), that may explain my midrange dip. I've had these speakers from 1986, original owner 🙂
How are you getting the test signal to the amp (BT, wired) ? Is it possible to generate a sine wave and measure the SPL ? It would allow you to find the port's freq peak (nearfield) to see if the woofer or tuning is working properly.
How are you getting the test signal to the amp (BT, wired) ? Is it possible to generate a sine wave and measure the SPL ? It would allow you to find the port's freq peak (nearfield) to see if the woofer or tuning is working properly.
