I haven't seen this in one thread anywhere so I'm hoping to that this will outline the Planet10 pre-treatment and EnABL process. Once you have the outline then a search can be done for the specifics of each process. Feel free to correct any inaccuracies.
1. Damar trifoil pattern
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
3. EnABL pattern using Poly Scale
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss
Correct? I know that there are other products that can be used as well.
1. Damar trifoil pattern
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
3. EnABL pattern using Poly Scale
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss
Correct? I know that there are other products that can be used as well.
jallenbass said:
Be aware that item #1 above has so far only been developed for the Fostex FE126/127 drivers. It was based on early work shared on DIY Audio by Mark McKenzie - his methodology has since been refined and is proprietary, and unlike Bud's EnABL pattern, it is not necessarily scalar.
Further - while the block pattern in #3 is scalar, there is a specific method to determine the number and location of block rings - which varies on size, shape and materials of cone / dust cap etc.
Finally, the number of coats in #4 can also vary, depending on actual listening tests - which unfortunately need to take into account the curing time for the acrylic material.
As there has yet to be "scientific method" perfected, the development of treatment regimen for any new driver is part art / part experience (of which Bud has decades) . Of course once that's been determined, "production" is merely a matter of meticulous repetition and patience, and waiting for the paint to dry.
I definitely agree.
I could not agree more that experience and art will play heavily into it. I still enjoy greatly my pair of FE126eN and remember fondly my surprise the first time I heard them. What I was surprised at was that it sounded so pleasing and artful. not "dead." In my opinion, death is easy to measure, easy to discuss. Easy to design a dead sound. I can only imagine that the eN is not an easy or totally straightforward undertaking and likely involves some difficult to teach (i.e. not infinitely scalable) processes. It definitely unleashes the true musical potential of an otherwise hindered driver and does not slow it down in the process.
Cone treatments are definitely an area for research. I cannot say that any one method or set of methods could or should be considered "standard" for any driver. Even within the Fostex line, the cone material and glues might be the same, but the paper thickness? The motor strength?
It will help to be as model specific as possible. (and iteration specific too). For instance, has anyone else noticed that about jan or april 2008 or so that the Fostex drivers started being shipped with more glue around the dust cap? To my ears, this totally improved the sound via taking away a twitch of nastiness from the HF response. The drivers also lost a bit of subjective HF response, however. A tradeoff, but in the right direction, IMO.
The best advice I could give (from the truly tiny amount that I feel like I understand about anything audio related, really) is to try to learn to "listen" to different parts of a driver. Put your ear up next to it (not for long). listen from a distance. realize that it is a cone. with a dust cap? Meditate on what each part of the driver is doing and what parts are underbuild/overbuilt by the factory. Then try to adjust from there with trial and error, revisiting each process again and again. (Almost all points are floating).
No free lunch for sure.
Cheers,
-Clark
I could not agree more that experience and art will play heavily into it. I still enjoy greatly my pair of FE126eN and remember fondly my surprise the first time I heard them. What I was surprised at was that it sounded so pleasing and artful. not "dead." In my opinion, death is easy to measure, easy to discuss. Easy to design a dead sound. I can only imagine that the eN is not an easy or totally straightforward undertaking and likely involves some difficult to teach (i.e. not infinitely scalable) processes. It definitely unleashes the true musical potential of an otherwise hindered driver and does not slow it down in the process.
Cone treatments are definitely an area for research. I cannot say that any one method or set of methods could or should be considered "standard" for any driver. Even within the Fostex line, the cone material and glues might be the same, but the paper thickness? The motor strength?
It will help to be as model specific as possible. (and iteration specific too). For instance, has anyone else noticed that about jan or april 2008 or so that the Fostex drivers started being shipped with more glue around the dust cap? To my ears, this totally improved the sound via taking away a twitch of nastiness from the HF response. The drivers also lost a bit of subjective HF response, however. A tradeoff, but in the right direction, IMO.
The best advice I could give (from the truly tiny amount that I feel like I understand about anything audio related, really) is to try to learn to "listen" to different parts of a driver. Put your ear up next to it (not for long). listen from a distance. realize that it is a cone. with a dust cap? Meditate on what each part of the driver is doing and what parts are underbuild/overbuilt by the factory. Then try to adjust from there with trial and error, revisiting each process again and again. (Almost all points are floating).
No free lunch for sure.
Cheers,
-Clark
1/5/7 specific to FE126/127
0/ min 100 hrs break-in and measure for matching (the latter if you are doing more than 1 pair)
2, 4/ ever decreasing coats
5/ add the stealth ring on top of the gloss (Clark's FE126eN were before the discovery of the stealth ring)
6/ measure & match pairs
7/ if you have EnABLed the box you will also need the optional mid dustcap stealth ring.
dave
Re: I definitely agree.
At least for FE126/127 they have been mucking with the assembly of the dustcap. At one point i moved from 3 rings to 4 at the dustcap as it seemed someone at the factory said "using too much black goop" and all of a sudden there were "canyons" where the middle row went. Drivers went thru a couple batches where consistency of this glue at the dust cap -- the last 2 batches seemed to have sttled down.
dave
blumenco said:
At least for FE126/127 they have been mucking with the assembly of the dustcap. At one point i moved from 3 rings to 4 at the dustcap as it seemed someone at the factory said "using too much black goop" and all of a sudden there were "canyons" where the middle row went. Drivers went thru a couple batches where consistency of this glue at the dust cap -- the last 2 batches seemed to have sttled down.
dave
Only slightly off topic.
After not having ordered speaks for a lot of years (7 or so) from Madisound, I was surprised to notice my new 167e was marked made in China. I would have overlooked it except someone I know was going on about buying American and identifying UPC codes for same.
They were all wet about the UPC's but my examination of the box had me spot it.
I can only hope that the Fostex brand has not taken a slide.
The unit is still breaking in and I'm just now practicing using and setting up my first real router.
After not having ordered speaks for a lot of years (7 or so) from Madisound, I was surprised to notice my new 167e was marked made in China. I would have overlooked it except someone I know was going on about buying American and identifying UPC codes for same.
They were all wet about the UPC's but my examination of the box had me spot it.
I can only hope that the Fostex brand has not taken a slide.
The unit is still breaking in and I'm just now practicing using and setting up my first real router.
Foster has a big factory in China... when it made sense (or even still) they had/have factories in Korea and Taiwan as well as Japan.
dave
dave
Also on topic here is that I looked for Micro Gloss in the hobby store.
Didn't find that whereas the Hobby Lobby did have Damar and Mod Podge.
Online research showed that Micro Gloss is more readily found where
auto decals are sold. But I haven't been to the car shops.
Didn't find that whereas the Hobby Lobby did have Damar and Mod Podge.
Online research showed that Micro Gloss is more readily found where
auto decals are sold. But I haven't been to the car shops.
After reading a lot of material about EnABL, I organized the process for Fostex 127E like this:
1. 100 hours stock drivers break-in
2. Damar trifoil pattern
a - Not thinned, straight out the bottle. Only one generous stroke.
b - Is there a template for the pattern? How to calculate the painting positions?
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
a - At least 6 hours between the coats.
b - Thinned with water with care to reach a consistency that allows a confortable flow witht the brush.
c - Only to the cone? What about the dustcap?
Listen the drivers at least 10 hours and evaluate.
3. EnABL dots pattern using Poly Scale
a - Must be tinted? Am I able to view the dots and then have control over the painting process if using raw white?
b - Thinned? What proportion? With water?
c - One stroke of the spots is enough?
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss only in the cone
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
b - Listen the drivers before each coat and stop before the 3rd coat if you feel the driver came alive.
5. 1 coat of thinned Microgloss only in the dustcap
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
6. PVA spot on the center of the dustcap
7. Coat only PVA spot with gloss 50%.
8. Add stealth spots in the mid ring.
a - What is the mid ring and stealth spots?
I know the process varies a lot. It is a like a guide I made for myself, there are some doubts in red and also can be useful for other fellows.
thanks
Highef
1. 100 hours stock drivers break-in
2. Damar trifoil pattern
a - Not thinned, straight out the bottle. Only one generous stroke.
b - Is there a template for the pattern? How to calculate the painting positions?
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
a - At least 6 hours between the coats.
b - Thinned with water with care to reach a consistency that allows a confortable flow witht the brush.
c - Only to the cone? What about the dustcap?
Listen the drivers at least 10 hours and evaluate.
3. EnABL dots pattern using Poly Scale
a - Must be tinted? Am I able to view the dots and then have control over the painting process if using raw white?
b - Thinned? What proportion? With water?
c - One stroke of the spots is enough?
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss only in the cone
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
b - Listen the drivers before each coat and stop before the 3rd coat if you feel the driver came alive.
5. 1 coat of thinned Microgloss only in the dustcap
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
6. PVA spot on the center of the dustcap
7. Coat only PVA spot with gloss 50%.
8. Add stealth spots in the mid ring.
a - What is the mid ring and stealth spots?
I know the process varies a lot. It is a like a guide I made for myself, there are some doubts in red and also can be useful for other fellows.
thanks
Highef
There is an EnABL how-to thread.
I will just address the trifoil template question. In emulation of what P10 does I made two templates from cast off 50 cent drivers one cut to the lower triad and one cut to the upper triad. There are some images of this from P10's workshop shots. The cone material is substantial and holds up well while handling.
But I did not apply it yet.
I will just address the trifoil template question. In emulation of what P10 does I made two templates from cast off 50 cent drivers one cut to the lower triad and one cut to the upper triad. There are some images of this from P10's workshop shots. The cone material is substantial and holds up well while handling.
But I did not apply it yet.
Here is the thread Lon refers to http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...x-fe127e-other-speakers.html?highlight=fe127e
8/ stealth is the use of clear pollyscale. The mid ring does not need to be stealth. Exact placement done using the tap test. Ends up coninciding pretty much with the ring of the trifoil closest to the dustcap.
3/ any but the flat pollyscale will work. A contrasting colour is useful, particularily while practising, to give you feedback on the application.
One stroke... you need to practise and get a handle on your tools & skills. note that weather, the state of your tools, the state of the paint can all make the way the pollyscale goes on different. No substitute for practice.
The Pollyscale does not have to be thinned, but make sure it is well mixed. If you do as many drivers as i do, and the paint pot remains open for long times, you will find a need to restore the viscosity of the paint.
2/ the dustcap gets treated the same as the cone. Particularily during the 1st coat, while the cap is wet, it is very fragile and easy to dent if you are not careful
dave
Thank you guys,
I have already read this referenced thread "EnABL how-to" many times. What I stated here is what I understood and I what I could gather from almost 300 messages of that topic.
Now, my guide is the following:
1. 100 hours stock drivers break-in
2. Damar trifoil pattern
a - Not thinned, straight out the bottle. Only one generous stroke.
b - Is there a template for the pattern? How to calculate the painting positions?
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
a - At least 6 hours between the coats.
b - Thinned with water with care to reach a consistency that allows a confortable flow witht the brush.
c - apply over the cone and dustcap with care.
Listen the drivers at least 10 hours and evaluate.
3. EnABL dots pattern using Poly Scale
a - Tinted can help.
b - Not thinned.
c - One stroke is enough.
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss only in the cone
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
b - Listen the drivers before each coat and stop before the 3rd coat if you feel the driver came alive.
5. 1 coat of thinned Microgloss only in the dustcap
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
6. PVA spot on the center of the dustcap
7. Coat only PVA spot with gloss 50%.
8. Add stealth spots in the mid ring.
I'm still no able to find a template pattern for the trifoil. I read somewhere about 9mm and 17mm from the outter edge of the cone, but I'm not sure yet about it. Any help?
thanks!
Highef
I have already read this referenced thread "EnABL how-to" many times. What I stated here is what I understood and I what I could gather from almost 300 messages of that topic.
Now, my guide is the following:
1. 100 hours stock drivers break-in
2. Damar trifoil pattern
a - Not thinned, straight out the bottle. Only one generous stroke.
b - Is there a template for the pattern? How to calculate the painting positions?
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
a - At least 6 hours between the coats.
b - Thinned with water with care to reach a consistency that allows a confortable flow witht the brush.
c - apply over the cone and dustcap with care.
Listen the drivers at least 10 hours and evaluate.
3. EnABL dots pattern using Poly Scale
a - Tinted can help.
b - Not thinned.
c - One stroke is enough.
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss only in the cone
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
b - Listen the drivers before each coat and stop before the 3rd coat if you feel the driver came alive.
5. 1 coat of thinned Microgloss only in the dustcap
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
6. PVA spot on the center of the dustcap
7. Coat only PVA spot with gloss 50%.
8. Add stealth spots in the mid ring.
I'm still no able to find a template pattern for the trifoil. I read somewhere about 9mm and 17mm from the outter edge of the cone, but I'm not sure yet about it. Any help?
thanks!
Highef
No template at this point. To make the template i use you need the cone from a dead FE126/127
Some info her planet_10 hifi
But mostly here Fullrangedriver Forum / Modded FE126e FE127e
dave
Dave,
thank you for the links. I think I got everything now. See how I updated the step 2 below.
Another question 🙂D). I read that the puzzlecoat would be like thinned PVA (wood glue). Is that correct?
thank you for the support.
Highef
1. 100 hours stock drivers break-in
2. Damar trifoil pattern
a - Not thinned, straight out the bottle. Only one generous stroke.
c - Divide the cone in 6 parts of 60 degrees. Mark the start and end points of each arch. 3 segments 9mm from the boundary alternated with 17mm.
b - Use a Q-tip to draw the arcs with Dammar and link all the arcs.
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
a - At least 6 hours between the coats.
b - Thinned with water with care to reach a consistency that allows a confortable flow witht the brush.
c - apply over the cone and dustcap with care.
Listen the drivers at least 10 hours and evaluate.
3. EnABL dots pattern using Poly Scale
a - Tinted can help.
b - Not thinned.
c - One stroke is enough.
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss only in the cone
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
b - Listen the drivers before each coat and stop before the 3rd coat if you feel the driver came alive.
5. 1 coat of thinned Microgloss only in the dustcap
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
6. PVA spot on the center of the dustcap
7. Coat only PVA spot with gloss 50%.
8. Add stealth spots in the mid ring.
thanks!
Highef
thank you for the links. I think I got everything now. See how I updated the step 2 below.
Another question 🙂D). I read that the puzzlecoat would be like thinned PVA (wood glue). Is that correct?
thank you for the support.
Highef
1. 100 hours stock drivers break-in
2. Damar trifoil pattern
a - Not thinned, straight out the bottle. Only one generous stroke.
c - Divide the cone in 6 parts of 60 degrees. Mark the start and end points of each arch. 3 segments 9mm from the boundary alternated with 17mm.
b - Use a Q-tip to draw the arcs with Dammar and link all the arcs.
2. 2 coats of thinned ModgePodge Puzzlecoat
a - At least 6 hours between the coats.
b - Thinned with water with care to reach a consistency that allows a confortable flow witht the brush.
c - apply over the cone and dustcap with care.
Listen the drivers at least 10 hours and evaluate.
3. EnABL dots pattern using Poly Scale
a - Tinted can help.
b - Not thinned.
c - One stroke is enough.
4. 3 coats of thinned Microgloss only in the cone
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
b - Listen the drivers before each coat and stop before the 3rd coat if you feel the driver came alive.
5. 1 coat of thinned Microgloss only in the dustcap
a - 50% Gloss thinned with water
6. PVA spot on the center of the dustcap
7. Coat only PVA spot with gloss 50%.
8. Add stealth spots in the mid ring.
thanks!
Highef
Both Modpodge & white wood glue are PVA formulations (there are a zillion recipes for PVA). I have found over time that the gloss puzzlcoat-like products retain a higher level of flexibilty when dry and are better suited to the job. I like modpodge (the original Puzzlecoat brand is no longer available).
dave
Considering that white PVA wood glues are forumlated, well, to glue wood together, you probably wouldn't want much post cured flexibility?
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