Hi all,
I've been pumping out cabinets for my single bass array, but needed a side quest to break up the flow and have a little fun. I really like fiddling with open baffle and I like the sound, but I also wanted to use the dipole effect for a real purpose in my upcoming room it will be in I think which is a long 40 foot room spanning the house with one end is the living room and the other end is the kitchen. I'd like to try out some large open baffles in the living room that will see daily use for all kinds of content so that the family can be loud and whatever in the living room, and the kitchen will be a far distance and 90 degree's off axis from these dipoles. So hopefully you can have a conversation in the kitchen without loud Lord of the Rails, Thomas the Engine, etc, barking from the 5 year old watching his shows and all that. Obviously not a hifi listening space lol. So this lets me satisfy the itch of building a new open baffle and experimenting and having a real place and purpose for it, and not just another pair of speakers to find a place for in the house.
With the looming economy and unclear duties shipping from over seas to USA, I was very weary to order some of the drivers I really wanted. I happened to find some Lii Song F-6's locally for a little more than the retail cost. These are budget drivers, no doubt, they're like $60 MSRP from China from Lii Song. But, I love the look and I like whizzer cones. I really wanted Fast 8's or The 12's or 15's even, but I didn't want to find out what duties I would swallow after paying, shipping and then double the cost or something from duties due to tariffs. So I just sat that out. Maybe in a few years I'll order a pair of what I really want. But until then, just gonna play with what's local. I just like the look of the Lii Songs, Tangs and a few Fostex that have that cream color bone color woofer cones, and like how they match organically in look to hard wood.
I have 4x GRS 8SW4HE drivers sitting around for projects and figured I'd try them out. They're not optimal for open baffle, but they have good power handling and excursion so I'll see if I can make it work with them instead of buying more stuff. My heart wanted 4x15's on these, but I also want to see the wood of the baffle and really didn't want to spend $500+ just to get a little bit more towards 30hz. We will see.
So experimenting with questionable combinations of drivers on a baffle.
My long term goal is to use two large mirror oak slabs that I have for the final iteration of this potentially. I'm going to experiment and develop on plywood baffles of similar dimensions to get the bulk of the effort done first though.
These are about 18 inches wide nominal and over 70 inches tall. Pretty flat. But I'll have to work them if I get to use them. My goal is to pick out about 50~55 inches of length from these and shorten it but keep all the live edge sides (bark removed). So knowing that, the shortest baffle dimension is around 18 inches. So planning around how 18 inches will factor into things.
I have some other drivers that I was interested in trying. So I did some overlays to see how it would look.
I have some PT6816 planar magnetic wide bands, a mid-woofer, the Lii F6's and the GRS 8's, so just to see how some arrangements might look. I also looked at how a MA200 Mark Audio and CHN110 Mark audio and CHR120 Mark audio might look on such slabs. They are not perfectly scaled here, just looking at how the drivers look with the slabs.
Not to scale:
I much prefer the warmer cones of the Marks and Lii's here. The Marks have low Qts and the Lii has higher Qts, so figured, for this I'll try the Lii's. Found them locally for an acceptable price so they were cheap.
I paid about $40 per driver new ($30 MSRP from China each, but lord knows what duties and shipping would have been, not worth it for cheap drivers like this).
Maybe after the tariff war nonsense if things get better, I'll feel better about ordering some Fast 8's or Fast 15's. These cheap F-6's will scratch the itch until then I suppose.
Then just for fun, how could the arrangements look with the GRS 8's and the drivers I have:
Didn't like these.
I think I like the Woofer Lii Woofer best (the look):
So will probably move forward with the Woofer Wideband Woofer arrangement on the baffles.
Very best,
I've been pumping out cabinets for my single bass array, but needed a side quest to break up the flow and have a little fun. I really like fiddling with open baffle and I like the sound, but I also wanted to use the dipole effect for a real purpose in my upcoming room it will be in I think which is a long 40 foot room spanning the house with one end is the living room and the other end is the kitchen. I'd like to try out some large open baffles in the living room that will see daily use for all kinds of content so that the family can be loud and whatever in the living room, and the kitchen will be a far distance and 90 degree's off axis from these dipoles. So hopefully you can have a conversation in the kitchen without loud Lord of the Rails, Thomas the Engine, etc, barking from the 5 year old watching his shows and all that. Obviously not a hifi listening space lol. So this lets me satisfy the itch of building a new open baffle and experimenting and having a real place and purpose for it, and not just another pair of speakers to find a place for in the house.
With the looming economy and unclear duties shipping from over seas to USA, I was very weary to order some of the drivers I really wanted. I happened to find some Lii Song F-6's locally for a little more than the retail cost. These are budget drivers, no doubt, they're like $60 MSRP from China from Lii Song. But, I love the look and I like whizzer cones. I really wanted Fast 8's or The 12's or 15's even, but I didn't want to find out what duties I would swallow after paying, shipping and then double the cost or something from duties due to tariffs. So I just sat that out. Maybe in a few years I'll order a pair of what I really want. But until then, just gonna play with what's local. I just like the look of the Lii Songs, Tangs and a few Fostex that have that cream color bone color woofer cones, and like how they match organically in look to hard wood.
I have 4x GRS 8SW4HE drivers sitting around for projects and figured I'd try them out. They're not optimal for open baffle, but they have good power handling and excursion so I'll see if I can make it work with them instead of buying more stuff. My heart wanted 4x15's on these, but I also want to see the wood of the baffle and really didn't want to spend $500+ just to get a little bit more towards 30hz. We will see.
So experimenting with questionable combinations of drivers on a baffle.
My long term goal is to use two large mirror oak slabs that I have for the final iteration of this potentially. I'm going to experiment and develop on plywood baffles of similar dimensions to get the bulk of the effort done first though.
These are about 18 inches wide nominal and over 70 inches tall. Pretty flat. But I'll have to work them if I get to use them. My goal is to pick out about 50~55 inches of length from these and shorten it but keep all the live edge sides (bark removed). So knowing that, the shortest baffle dimension is around 18 inches. So planning around how 18 inches will factor into things.
I have some other drivers that I was interested in trying. So I did some overlays to see how it would look.
I have some PT6816 planar magnetic wide bands, a mid-woofer, the Lii F6's and the GRS 8's, so just to see how some arrangements might look. I also looked at how a MA200 Mark Audio and CHN110 Mark audio and CHR120 Mark audio might look on such slabs. They are not perfectly scaled here, just looking at how the drivers look with the slabs.
Not to scale:
I much prefer the warmer cones of the Marks and Lii's here. The Marks have low Qts and the Lii has higher Qts, so figured, for this I'll try the Lii's. Found them locally for an acceptable price so they were cheap.
I paid about $40 per driver new ($30 MSRP from China each, but lord knows what duties and shipping would have been, not worth it for cheap drivers like this).
Maybe after the tariff war nonsense if things get better, I'll feel better about ordering some Fast 8's or Fast 15's. These cheap F-6's will scratch the itch until then I suppose.
Then just for fun, how could the arrangements look with the GRS 8's and the drivers I have:
Didn't like these.
I think I like the Woofer Lii Woofer best (the look):
So will probably move forward with the Woofer Wideband Woofer arrangement on the baffles.
Very best,
I tried to model with Edge & Basta to get an idea of what to expect with these. I know they will roll off early. The baffle width is 18", so it'll start around 750hz or so and really kick in lower some where in the hundreds of hz. Overall I'm not trying to be too specific since my final baffles will not be perfect geometry so I know I'll have to just fiddle and tinker with things as I go. Part of the fun!
Edge:
Looking at the wideband placement first since it will cover everything until somehwere between 100~300hz range I think.
Center arrangement prediction has a nasty cancellation around 1300hz.
Off center, about 1/3rd of the baffle looks better:
Looks like the roll off really starts under 300hz as expected.
Finally, closer to center but off center a tiny bit vertically and more like 1/4th or 1/5th baffle width placement, I see this prediction:
Ultimately not sure which will matter most, but I figure I should hang onto any bass efficiency I can and also want to keep the wideband approximately ear height while seated in typical height seating.
Basta:
Went into Basta to get a look at things too. Ultimately I liked what I saw with this placement on the baffle dimensions:
So maybe somewhere near 200hz I'll see if I can cross my woofers and see how that looks.
Very best,
Edge:
Looking at the wideband placement first since it will cover everything until somehwere between 100~300hz range I think.
Center arrangement prediction has a nasty cancellation around 1300hz.
Off center, about 1/3rd of the baffle looks better:
Looks like the roll off really starts under 300hz as expected.
Finally, closer to center but off center a tiny bit vertically and more like 1/4th or 1/5th baffle width placement, I see this prediction:
Ultimately not sure which will matter most, but I figure I should hang onto any bass efficiency I can and also want to keep the wideband approximately ear height while seated in typical height seating.
Basta:
Went into Basta to get a look at things too. Ultimately I liked what I saw with this placement on the baffle dimensions:
So maybe somewhere near 200hz I'll see if I can cross my woofers and see how that looks.
Very best,
Received the Lii Song F6's from a 3rd party retailer on Amazon in 3 days. Sure wish they carried the Fast series.
Back of the driver. Not sure I believe the T&S, will test.
Face of the driver, lovely cream cone, whizzer, I like the look.
Measured on DATS and then ran them to moderate excursion (or high excursion for them) to see their behavior and sort out if they're lemons or not.
Cold DATS out of the box:
F&S is double what they claimed on the back of the driver lol.
With a jig placed for scale, I gave them some excursion to break them in and then measured them again the next day after a few hours of 30hz with about 3~4mm of peak to peak excursion.
I scale measured them to 4.6mm peak to peak excursion at 7.5V in free air, so maybe 2mm xmax is the practical limit.
After the break in, here's the new DATS. Fs came down a bit. Still, no where near published 40's hz. That's fine though.
Very best,
Back of the driver. Not sure I believe the T&S, will test.
Face of the driver, lovely cream cone, whizzer, I like the look.
Measured on DATS and then ran them to moderate excursion (or high excursion for them) to see their behavior and sort out if they're lemons or not.
Cold DATS out of the box:
F&S is double what they claimed on the back of the driver lol.
With a jig placed for scale, I gave them some excursion to break them in and then measured them again the next day after a few hours of 30hz with about 3~4mm of peak to peak excursion.
I scale measured them to 4.6mm peak to peak excursion at 7.5V in free air, so maybe 2mm xmax is the practical limit.
After the break in, here's the new DATS. Fs came down a bit. Still, no where near published 40's hz. That's fine though.
Very best,
Next up, test baffle iteration one.
I took some scrap plywood to make a test baffle.
I went with 1/3rd off center towards an edge with the wideband.
I centered the woofers, they're about 20 inches center to center space (0.5 meters)
About 10 inches center to center from the wide band to the center of either woofer (0.25 meters)
Just a hopefully transparent kickstand to hold them up while testing things. Final version will have something different. I did this just to have easy access to the drivers and stuff while testing and tinkering.
54" (1.37m) x 18" (0.457m) final baffle size.
Driver fitting.
I really like the look of drivers behind the baffle to hide the mounting flange. But, I know that it can make a mess with the mids-treble range with the cavity as a pseudo-waveguide and flip phase and stuff. Still, I'll test on both sides of the baffle to see how bad it is.
The Lii is probably best mounted on the front, flush.
But, I want to see how bad it is from behind the baffle just in case its tolerable.
Just to get an idea of the arrangement, baffle size, placement, etc. The hardware is temporary (machine screws and washers and nuts). Final version will not have hardware on the front of the baffle. This is just testing iteration 1.
Very best,
I took some scrap plywood to make a test baffle.
I went with 1/3rd off center towards an edge with the wideband.
I centered the woofers, they're about 20 inches center to center space (0.5 meters)
About 10 inches center to center from the wide band to the center of either woofer (0.25 meters)
Just a hopefully transparent kickstand to hold them up while testing things. Final version will have something different. I did this just to have easy access to the drivers and stuff while testing and tinkering.
54" (1.37m) x 18" (0.457m) final baffle size.
Driver fitting.
I really like the look of drivers behind the baffle to hide the mounting flange. But, I know that it can make a mess with the mids-treble range with the cavity as a pseudo-waveguide and flip phase and stuff. Still, I'll test on both sides of the baffle to see how bad it is.
The Lii is probably best mounted on the front, flush.
But, I want to see how bad it is from behind the baffle just in case its tolerable.
Just to get an idea of the arrangement, baffle size, placement, etc. The hardware is temporary (machine screws and washers and nuts). Final version will not have hardware on the front of the baffle. This is just testing iteration 1.
Very best,
Some quick dirty measurements to see how it behaves and how the roll off looks. I'm not trying to get anechoic measurements at this stage, just getting an idea of the overall shape.
This is the Lii F6 on the test baffle by itself just a raw sweep at distance. Again, no correction, just seeing the initial shape potential. I see right away 3~5khz range has two nasty peaks with significant amplitude. Likely the cavity from the driver mounted from behind the baffle I imagine. Also a peak around 900hz with significant amplitude. The rest is tolerable looking and seems to do ok down to about 200~300hz then rolls off significantly under 100hz as expected.
Here's the GRS8's in series on the baffle mounted from behind, long sweep just to see entire behavior. Not corrected for. Not near field. All I'm looking at is how they behave from the bottom to about 500~600hz. Above that it gets nasty. They roll off naturally under 60hz. But from 60hz to 600hz there's plenty to work with there it seems.
GRS 8's impedance sweep and T&S on the baffle.
Lii F6 on the baffle impedance and T&S.
With a DSP, I'm just looking at potential crossing points to see how it looks. Here I'm crossing around 280hz or so and keeping the woofers output higher so I can shape and cut, later will boost output to 30hz range if I can.
In the T.racks 4x Mini Pro, I'm trying a new notches on those peaks and high passing it around 200hz.
Most of the notches in place as above. Then lifted bass and crossed.
Did some shelving and high pass on the woofers, just to keep them behaved but push them pretty hard towards 30hz to see if I can get that up to flat or better. These 8's have 11mm excursion and can handle it pretty nicely, just inefficient to do it, but maybe it will work. Will find out.
Re-shaping the wide band, shelving the top and bottom for a bit more of a curve and to tame the whizzer treble area but also lift a bit towards where I'm crossing to smooth that out if I can.
Landed here for now. I know this is not flat. This is also not corrected or anechoic or anything. Again, just shaping to see rough form of curve to see what's even possible and if these drivers will even work out on this baffle size, or if I need to abandon them and get different drivers for this. So far, this crude curve looks ok to me. It sounds fairly good surprisingly just listening to content I'm familiar with. The bass is significant which is nice, the 8's are surprisingly capable with the power behind them. The excursion and power overcomes the dipole cancellation to a degree and the lack of baffle width. It can't do anything more than 30~40hz though, it tanks under that and cannot give any more. Some prefer flat, but I do not, I like it warmer and heavy towards 30hz and with whizzers I like a rolled off treble top. For a smooth warm listen. Again, this is not final, just seeing what's possible with the DSP and if these can be made to work out and sound ok to be comfortable with moving forward with them.
Next, I need to test the Lii F6 on the front of the baffle, flush, to see if I can get away with less notches.
I also need to test adding wings behind the baffle to help the bass response a little more. Foam board testing time.
Very best,
This is the Lii F6 on the test baffle by itself just a raw sweep at distance. Again, no correction, just seeing the initial shape potential. I see right away 3~5khz range has two nasty peaks with significant amplitude. Likely the cavity from the driver mounted from behind the baffle I imagine. Also a peak around 900hz with significant amplitude. The rest is tolerable looking and seems to do ok down to about 200~300hz then rolls off significantly under 100hz as expected.
Here's the GRS8's in series on the baffle mounted from behind, long sweep just to see entire behavior. Not corrected for. Not near field. All I'm looking at is how they behave from the bottom to about 500~600hz. Above that it gets nasty. They roll off naturally under 60hz. But from 60hz to 600hz there's plenty to work with there it seems.
GRS 8's impedance sweep and T&S on the baffle.
Lii F6 on the baffle impedance and T&S.
With a DSP, I'm just looking at potential crossing points to see how it looks. Here I'm crossing around 280hz or so and keeping the woofers output higher so I can shape and cut, later will boost output to 30hz range if I can.
In the T.racks 4x Mini Pro, I'm trying a new notches on those peaks and high passing it around 200hz.
Most of the notches in place as above. Then lifted bass and crossed.
Did some shelving and high pass on the woofers, just to keep them behaved but push them pretty hard towards 30hz to see if I can get that up to flat or better. These 8's have 11mm excursion and can handle it pretty nicely, just inefficient to do it, but maybe it will work. Will find out.
Re-shaping the wide band, shelving the top and bottom for a bit more of a curve and to tame the whizzer treble area but also lift a bit towards where I'm crossing to smooth that out if I can.
Landed here for now. I know this is not flat. This is also not corrected or anechoic or anything. Again, just shaping to see rough form of curve to see what's even possible and if these drivers will even work out on this baffle size, or if I need to abandon them and get different drivers for this. So far, this crude curve looks ok to me. It sounds fairly good surprisingly just listening to content I'm familiar with. The bass is significant which is nice, the 8's are surprisingly capable with the power behind them. The excursion and power overcomes the dipole cancellation to a degree and the lack of baffle width. It can't do anything more than 30~40hz though, it tanks under that and cannot give any more. Some prefer flat, but I do not, I like it warmer and heavy towards 30hz and with whizzers I like a rolled off treble top. For a smooth warm listen. Again, this is not final, just seeing what's possible with the DSP and if these can be made to work out and sound ok to be comfortable with moving forward with them.
Next, I need to test the Lii F6 on the front of the baffle, flush, to see if I can get away with less notches.
I also need to test adding wings behind the baffle to help the bass response a little more. Foam board testing time.
Very best,
Testing another baffle mounting for the Lii, I cut another 18" baffle and cut out a hole and rabbet cut out a place for the flange and it now is flush with the baffle to test that.
I have a tiny gap that I could have made a bit better here, so, will make note of that on the next prototype.
Overall, I'm ok with the look of it being front flush mounted. I prefer the look of the driver mounted from behind the baffle and no hardware to be seen.
Baffle 1 (red) mounted from behind
Baffle 2 (blue) mounted flush on the front
Separated more so we can examine them. The 3khz spike is gone. The 4.5khz spike is still there. So not sure what that is and if I can do something with this. I may try a few wings or materials to see if it's the driver, the baffle, or geometry based from the baffle. The top end is less bright. The rest is fine to start working with. But so far, this may indicate that its just going to be better to flush mount the driver on the front of the baffle. I worry about this some because my oak slabs are 1.5" thick (36mm) and so if I mount this from behind, it will have a 36mm waveguide essentially and likely have really gnarly peaks and phase flipping and stuff just from past experience doing that. I prefer the rear mounted look. But, it may just be better overall to flush mount on the front.
Any input appreciated.
Very best,
I have a tiny gap that I could have made a bit better here, so, will make note of that on the next prototype.
Overall, I'm ok with the look of it being front flush mounted. I prefer the look of the driver mounted from behind the baffle and no hardware to be seen.
Baffle 1 (red) mounted from behind
Baffle 2 (blue) mounted flush on the front
Separated more so we can examine them. The 3khz spike is gone. The 4.5khz spike is still there. So not sure what that is and if I can do something with this. I may try a few wings or materials to see if it's the driver, the baffle, or geometry based from the baffle. The top end is less bright. The rest is fine to start working with. But so far, this may indicate that its just going to be better to flush mount the driver on the front of the baffle. I worry about this some because my oak slabs are 1.5" thick (36mm) and so if I mount this from behind, it will have a 36mm waveguide essentially and likely have really gnarly peaks and phase flipping and stuff just from past experience doing that. I prefer the rear mounted look. But, it may just be better overall to flush mount on the front.
Any input appreciated.
Very best,