About 9 years ago i bought some Morel tweets, focal midrange and focal midbass speakers from Madsound based on the recommendations of a freind I would call an audiophile. Since then I have lost contact with him and no one (MAdisound ) seems to know anything about them. I would be looking for recommended crossover hz.
I think this might have been a well know system at the time.
Does anyone know any Focal experts I can contact?
I think this might have been a well know system at the time.
Does anyone know any Focal experts I can contact?
Zalytron may have these schematics around, but I don't believe they design any crossovers themselves. They rely on others, Mostly Orca for the Focals, and I believe Joe D'Appolitto as well. We could probably help you out as well. I don't have a lot of older focal drivers, but I'm a big fan and do have some of the Kevlar midbass and midrange drivers, and most all of the w-cone drivers that are 6" or less. I also have TC90tdx, TC120tdc, TC120td5, and a few car tweeters from focal, with measurements, so I may be able to suggest a crossover.
My least favorite final option, but honestly would be no worse than something you got without any measurements would be, is to use traces. I actually find the FRD files are rather close, its the Impedance files that are problematic. I'm not a big fan of SPL trace, nice concept, but somewhat poor results in actual use. Anyway, if I can get the graphs, I can trace and give it a shot. I don't like to design very complex crossovers based on the traces since I'm usually quite uncertain about the fine details of the response and impedance. Another important factor to consider will be the box, well, front baffle design mostly, and number of drivers used in this setup. Also, a sense of what you like in sound is good to know, since I can design it to be maximumly flat, tilted down (my preference), tilted up, bbc dip, etc. I'm sure others here could help further refine such an effort as well.
My least favorite final option, but honestly would be no worse than something you got without any measurements would be, is to use traces. I actually find the FRD files are rather close, its the Impedance files that are problematic. I'm not a big fan of SPL trace, nice concept, but somewhat poor results in actual use. Anyway, if I can get the graphs, I can trace and give it a shot. I don't like to design very complex crossovers based on the traces since I'm usually quite uncertain about the fine details of the response and impedance. Another important factor to consider will be the box, well, front baffle design mostly, and number of drivers used in this setup. Also, a sense of what you like in sound is good to know, since I can design it to be maximumly flat, tilted down (my preference), tilted up, bbc dip, etc. I'm sure others here could help further refine such an effort as well.
The speakers are at my house, but I do have the identification number for the mids, they were pruchased from madisound:
Ref - 4C212
N - 4081340
I called Orca and they said they only deal with car audio.
About two years ago I spoke with someone at Zalytron and they gave me the name of somone to call. It was a persons name I seem to remeber, not a company name. I spoke to the person there and they were going to get bck to me. But that never happened and I lost the contact info.
Ref - 4C212
N - 4081340
I called Orca and they said they only deal with car audio.
About two years ago I spoke with someone at Zalytron and they gave me the name of somone to call. It was a persons name I seem to remeber, not a company name. I spoke to the person there and they were going to get bck to me. But that never happened and I lost the contact info.
4C - I think that might be really old. I think only the 'K' and 'W' (or occasionally 'V') models are still available. It's possible they were from the Axon brand that Focal used to release their lower priced drivers through.
Are the cones made of a black plastic stuff, or is it a sort of grey 'fibrous' looking stuff?
The 'local' people here in Aus were W.A.R. Audio (war at warco.com.au). If you provide the model numbers, and a bit of pleading, then they might be able to provide you with the T/S parameters. I had an old sales brochure from them up until about a year ago which had all these old units in them, but it got thrown out in the last move...sorry!
Are the cones made of a black plastic stuff, or is it a sort of grey 'fibrous' looking stuff?
The 'local' people here in Aus were W.A.R. Audio (war at warco.com.au). If you provide the model numbers, and a bit of pleading, then they might be able to provide you with the T/S parameters. I had an old sales brochure from them up until about a year ago which had all these old units in them, but it got thrown out in the last move...sorry!
It's unlikely that Focal would give you any information. They have been very unhelpful to me in the past. As for Orca, what do you mean they only deal in Car Audio. I just got through talking with them about my own drivers, they don't even carry any car audio that I know of.
Orca Design Is that the place you called? Who told you they only do car audio, let me smack them around a little for misleading you.
By the way, I don't know what drivers those are, but I agree, I think they are before the normal nomenclature. Focal never released drivers through Axon, you are thinking of Access. That wasn't their cheaper line though, it was a special line they designed for DIYers that didn't require complicated 4th order crossovers with extensive correction filters. The breakup of their drivers have always required careful crossover design that was beyond normal diyers abilities, so that was their solution. I remember they used to claim you could run them full range with just a simple cap and resistor on the tweeter and get a perfectly flat response (rubbish by the way). None the less, if they are access drivers, then they are quite easy to design with, but they should have at least a 1st order crossover on the midbass, they weren't that flat.
Orca Design Is that the place you called? Who told you they only do car audio, let me smack them around a little for misleading you.
By the way, I don't know what drivers those are, but I agree, I think they are before the normal nomenclature. Focal never released drivers through Axon, you are thinking of Access. That wasn't their cheaper line though, it was a special line they designed for DIYers that didn't require complicated 4th order crossovers with extensive correction filters. The breakup of their drivers have always required careful crossover design that was beyond normal diyers abilities, so that was their solution. I remember they used to claim you could run them full range with just a simple cap and resistor on the tweeter and get a perfectly flat response (rubbish by the way). None the less, if they are access drivers, then they are quite easy to design with, but they should have at least a 1st order crossover on the midbass, they weren't that flat.
Actually I see that Zalytron has a driver in the focal page labeled 4C 111 which is a 4" coated paper midbass, so I'm guessing its something similar. Also, that was an oem driver, not originally released to the public, which is possibly true of yours. That will make it harder, I have no oem drivers.
Thanks pjpoes, 'Access' - shows how bad the old brain is getting. As far as cheap is concerned, the Access line weren't cheap, but they were certainly a few bucks less than any other equivalent sized driver when I looked at the. But that was back in the 90's.
And you could get them supplied in full kit as well (design plus drivers - I'm not sure if the crossover was supplied as well), but I'm not sure if that was WAR audio or Focal/Access.
And you could get them supplied in full kit as well (design plus drivers - I'm not sure if the crossover was supplied as well), but I'm not sure if that was WAR audio or Focal/Access.
I haven't made any phone calls yet, but I got all the speakers out and looked at them.
Tweeters: Morel MDT30
Mids: Focal 4C212 (two for each speaker)
Midbass: Peerless 831727
This wasn't a kit, I don't think, but may have been a well known system.
Tweeters: Morel MDT30
Mids: Focal 4C212 (two for each speaker)
Midbass: Peerless 831727
This wasn't a kit, I don't think, but may have been a well known system.
A year or two ago I requested detailed info about W cone drivers from Orca Designs who I dealt with some ten years ago. They sent me a large packet of literature about auto sound drivers only. Worthless to me. I complained to Kimon Bellas directly and received a curt reply that they were no longer trying to market drivers to the DIY community. FWIW.
I wrote to warco.com.au, so hopefully I will get an answer soon.
I will call Zalytron and Madisound again today.
I will call Zalytron and Madisound again today.
Help is here 😉
i was Germany FOCAL Distributor from 1983 until 1997
and i have tons of technical desriptions and datasheets.
I was also ScanSpeak and Morel distributor for several years.
I know everything abt FOCAL drivertechnology and you just need to drop me the exact numbers and letters from the white FOCAL badge on the Magnets backside.
I'll send you the copies of catalogues some days later via email.
i was Germany FOCAL Distributor from 1983 until 1997
and i have tons of technical desriptions and datasheets.
I was also ScanSpeak and Morel distributor for several years.
I know everything abt FOCAL drivertechnology and you just need to drop me the exact numbers and letters from the white FOCAL badge on the Magnets backside.
I'll send you the copies of catalogues some days later via email.
Found some midbass focals.
Tweeters: Morel MDT30 (Qty 2)
Mids:Focal 4C212 (Qty 2)
Midbass: Focal 7N412DBE (coated paper, DVC)(Qty 4)
So it looks like one tweet, one mid and two midbasses per per speaker. The Peerless woofer might have been for another sonething else.
there was a discussion on a German forum about the woofers but it was much help:
www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=42711&l=3&l=3 - 112k -
Tweeters: Morel MDT30 (Qty 2)
Mids:Focal 4C212 (Qty 2)
Midbass: Focal 7N412DBE (coated paper, DVC)(Qty 4)
So it looks like one tweet, one mid and two midbasses per per speaker. The Peerless woofer might have been for another sonething else.
there was a discussion on a German forum about the woofers but it was much help:
www.analog-forum.de/wbboard/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=42711&l=3&l=3 - 112k -
ok 4C212 is an OEM Device and was never "official" catalogue driver.
the FOCAL nomenclatura was
4 = Basketsize 4"
C=cellulose=paper
N=Neoflex a plasticmateriela similar to Bextrene but stiffer and lighter always treated with Plastiflex cone treatment
V = Verre (french for Glass) paper with treatment of glassbubbles
also called Polyglass
K =in the older times Polykevlar, means a real Sandwich cone with 3 layers
2 size of Magnet
1 voicecoil diameter
2 Voicecoilheight
sometimes they changed this f.i in Midrange units with Plugs.
I think this unit has either a fifferent Gap size (5mm instead of 4mm) and or a slighty longer VC of like 9-10mm
You should use it from 300Hz-4kHz.
The 7N412DBE is the standard old doubleVC 7Inch driver fpr 2 Way systems. DBE ist the smaller gap there was a DBL later.
Hopefully the spiders are ok did u lay them on their back or have they been in upright position?
some detailed Fotos (from side sowing spider)would be helpfull.
the FOCAL nomenclatura was
4 = Basketsize 4"
C=cellulose=paper
N=Neoflex a plasticmateriela similar to Bextrene but stiffer and lighter always treated with Plastiflex cone treatment
V = Verre (french for Glass) paper with treatment of glassbubbles
also called Polyglass
K =in the older times Polykevlar, means a real Sandwich cone with 3 layers
2 size of Magnet
1 voicecoil diameter
2 Voicecoilheight
sometimes they changed this f.i in Midrange units with Plugs.
I think this unit has either a fifferent Gap size (5mm instead of 4mm) and or a slighty longer VC of like 9-10mm
You should use it from 300Hz-4kHz.
The 7N412DBE is the standard old doubleVC 7Inch driver fpr 2 Way systems. DBE ist the smaller gap there was a DBL later.
Hopefully the spiders are ok did u lay them on their back or have they been in upright position?
some detailed Fotos (from side sowing spider)would be helpfull.
Zoller,thanks. fantstic info. I have looked everywhere and found nothing.
The speakers have been in boxes facing up for the last 10 years. I checked out the 4c212 and the spider looked flat, it did not look like they took set or sagged. The 7N's had sagged about 1mm. Are the 7N's trashed or can they still be used?
Do you have recommende box sizes for the 4C's, do you know their sensitivety, were they good speakers?
Also, what do you know about the 7N's, were they good speakers?
thanks again.
The speakers have been in boxes facing up for the last 10 years. I checked out the 4c212 and the spider looked flat, it did not look like they took set or sagged. The 7N's had sagged about 1mm. Are the 7N's trashed or can they still be used?
Do you have recommende box sizes for the 4C's, do you know their sensitivety, were they good speakers?
Also, what do you know about the 7N's, were they good speakers?
thanks again.
I rechecked the sag on the 4C212's and 7N412DBE's again using a straight edge. There seems to be no sag what-so-ever in either speaker. I guess I lucked out.
I am going assume the dual VC's on the 7N412DBE's are 8 ohm a piece. Is this correct?
I am going assume the dual VC's on the 7N412DBE's are 8 ohm a piece. Is this correct?
yes , each VC has 8 Ohms. They are 2 way units with Doublevoicecoil (one VC Bass, one VC Bassmidrange until 2kHz).
If i had the choice i would do 2 two way speaker with MDT 30 and 7 N402DBE.
Depending on roomsize max Soundlevel and your taste in Music u maybe need a Subwoofer additional.
In a 20sqm room and normal level un can be happy with this speaker for many years.
Deep Bass = Column 25Liters Volume BR
Small = Bookshelf speaker 12 Liters Volume BR
i can add a Xover here if u nwnat to give it a Try.
If i had the choice i would do 2 two way speaker with MDT 30 and 7 N402DBE.
Depending on roomsize max Soundlevel and your taste in Music u maybe need a Subwoofer additional.
In a 20sqm room and normal level un can be happy with this speaker for many years.
Deep Bass = Column 25Liters Volume BR
Small = Bookshelf speaker 12 Liters Volume BR
i can add a Xover here if u nwnat to give it a Try.
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