Does anyone on the board work in Michigan, or better yet, work for an automaker? I'm curious what employees are hearing about the likelihood of a GM failure.
Haven't heard about any details but considering they're asking for financial help, it doesn't look good so far. Maybe if they could just make some larger gas guzzling suv's everything would be okay. 🙄 If they make it through these tough times, hopefully they will learn a little in the process and improve their philosophy all together.
Well, I live in Detroit and talked to some guys from GM designing team. They basically said that for decades American People wanted bigger and bigger cars (along with everything bigger) and Gov supported this trend with low gas prices . They did not make any money on small cars because average Joe and his female wanted a huge trucks/SUvs on their driveways. Now, they (manufacturers)are blamed for everything .
I did not buy into this opinion entirely but have to admit that there is some truth to it and Hummers in the city look pretty ^%^%$#$ ridiculus. The mood in the city is grave and I can't imagine they will let GM sink.
Regards, L
I did not buy into this opinion entirely but have to admit that there is some truth to it and Hummers in the city look pretty ^%^%$#$ ridiculus. The mood in the city is grave and I can't imagine they will let GM sink.
Regards, L
I live in Detroit and worked for Ford for more than 20 years. Thank God I don't now!
The problem with the big 3 are legacy. They have legacy contracts for the employees that locks them into high wages, high pensions, outrageous health benifits, etc. This makes the overhead for each car high enough that they cannot make money on smaller cars as the price and margins are not sufficient to cover their nearly $2000 per car offset from the imports due to legacy contracts. Thats why they HAVE TO sell bigger cars and trucks. And the fact that ammericans loved these gas guzzlers was not inconvenient - until they didn't like them anymore, then it was a problem.
Do I think they will go bankrupt - I certainly hope so. Thats the only way to get out from under the noncompetitive cost structure that they are shackled with.
Want an example. My wife has a PhD and is a Department head at the local university. She heard an interview on NPR about a year ago with a factory worker at one of the car companies who was complaining that his overtime had gone away. When asked he admitted that with overtime he was making a six figure income! Not my wife or anyone in her Department has a six figure income! Now how did this happen? A factory worker with no education makes more than a Professor teaching our kids!
Go bankrupt - not soon enough for me.
No one at Ford ever wanted to hear me when I spelled doom and gloom for the auto industry when I was there last. It's all coming true now. Do I have sympathy, no not really. Its time that Detroit got competitive, not sympathy.
A bail out only forstalls the problem - it does nothing to correct it.
The problem with the big 3 are legacy. They have legacy contracts for the employees that locks them into high wages, high pensions, outrageous health benifits, etc. This makes the overhead for each car high enough that they cannot make money on smaller cars as the price and margins are not sufficient to cover their nearly $2000 per car offset from the imports due to legacy contracts. Thats why they HAVE TO sell bigger cars and trucks. And the fact that ammericans loved these gas guzzlers was not inconvenient - until they didn't like them anymore, then it was a problem.
Do I think they will go bankrupt - I certainly hope so. Thats the only way to get out from under the noncompetitive cost structure that they are shackled with.
Want an example. My wife has a PhD and is a Department head at the local university. She heard an interview on NPR about a year ago with a factory worker at one of the car companies who was complaining that his overtime had gone away. When asked he admitted that with overtime he was making a six figure income! Not my wife or anyone in her Department has a six figure income! Now how did this happen? A factory worker with no education makes more than a Professor teaching our kids!
Go bankrupt - not soon enough for me.
No one at Ford ever wanted to hear me when I spelled doom and gloom for the auto industry when I was there last. It's all coming true now. Do I have sympathy, no not really. Its time that Detroit got competitive, not sympathy.
A bail out only forstalls the problem - it does nothing to correct it.
this country is set up for failure in GM ever goes under there will be to many unemployed people and it will be an instant depression. i think the government will never let it get that far.
1moreamp said:
I was specifically asked to post this comment by one of the above posters so it IS on the topic on this page. If you are offended I'm sorry about that.
limono said:
Almost free interstates and cheap gas did wonders for the railway infrastructure too.
audiobahnkid592 said:
Is it?
I've personally owned two Volkswages, and Audi, a Ford, a Hyundai, and two Hondas. The least reliable car I ever drove was made in Germany; the most reliable was made here in the good ol' USA.
Yay for Ford right?
Well, no. My Ford was made in Hermosillo and had serious problems. Not a terrible car, but it was no Honda either.
Yes, my most reliable car was a Honda made here in the U-S-A. So reliable that it's the only car I've purchased twice.
Now why can Honda make a great car in the USA, but GM can't? A lot of people blame the designers, but I think the cost structure is the real culprit. From the lowliest janitor to the chairman of the board, The Big Three pay EVERYONE more than the competitors do. In 2007 GM paid their CEO 15.7 million(1), and INCREASE from 2006 as the company continued to lurch towards bankruptcy. The salary of Honda's CEO isn't public, but statistics show that Japanese CEOs make 1/5th what American CEOs do. From what I've read, the compensation across the board is nearly double what it is for Honda and Toyota.(2)
Do you see how that explains my crappy Ford? It's not that Ford is completely inept; it's that they're saddled with a cost structure that dictates they MUST cut corners to sell a Ford for a competitive price. Since the labor cost is so high, they have to make compromises in other areas. Ford chose to build the car in Hermosillo Mexico.
I see a ton of people argue that The Big Three simply need to make better cars and they'll be competitive with Honda and Toyota. This isn't true. Even if GM had the blueprint for the world's best sedan, they couldn't make it as cheaply as Toyota because they pay their workers too much. So they would have to sell it for more than Toyota, and it would fail in the marketplace. That's the reason that Ford and GM sell vehicles which are comparable to Honda and Toyota, but always fall short in one respect or another. It's not their fault; they do this to keep the price competitive.
1 - http://www.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idUSN2534738420080425
2- http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/11/24/opinion/main4630103.shtml
There aren't many instances where the location of the vehicle being manufactured dictates QUALITY. (aside from some of the paint quality control for some late 80's mid 90's domestic vehicles) Quality and cost are not always directly related. You can build quality (as in long lasting) vehicles that don't have plastic chrome everywhere. Yes, the comparative labor cost is lower in some countries, but if the vehicle has a good design and is assembled in the US(toyota/subaru/honda) its still going to be a quality vehicle. Take your ford (possibly mazda) and build it in another country where the labor cost is lower and its still going to be limited by its design quality.
John
Sad as it is you are completely correct. Either they have to get competitive or get out of business. In the end those are the only two options.
People in the US are in for a sad life style correction that I have seen coming for a long time now. We are, on average, going to see our standard of living decline significantly over the next several years. It should have declined over the last several years, but thanks to the bankers and credit cards, etc. we "financed" our extended standard of living, kind of like using your credit card to pay for a vacation that you can't afford, and now the bills have come due.
Sad as it is you are completely correct. Either they have to get competitive or get out of business. In the end those are the only two options.
People in the US are in for a sad life style correction that I have seen coming for a long time now. We are, on average, going to see our standard of living decline significantly over the next several years. It should have declined over the last several years, but thanks to the bankers and credit cards, etc. we "financed" our extended standard of living, kind of like using your credit card to pay for a vacation that you can't afford, and now the bills have come due.
gedlee said:
Allow me clarify:
This WHOLE post has no business here under Car audio IMO. My comments are based on the fact this is a CAR AUDIO repair and self help forum. NOT a political issues and current affairs forum.....
The post has invited very personalized comments from some that may be objectionable to many people. And may be inflammatory also.
Again depending on your political point of view about the subject matter. So the subject matter is inappropriate for this forum IMO.
As you have expressed your points of view I also express mine, by asking for this very sensitive issue be moved to a more appropriate venue. I like it peaceful around here, with a solid focus on Car Audio self help issues....
Just my 2 cents and energy spent to restore this particular forum back on focus... I neither agree or disagree with you or your opinions concerning the issues that were posted, But I also would rather get back to helping folks and not complaining about things I can not change or improve upon with any personal point of view I might have....
I respect your rights and wishes to open your topics for open discussion BUT I just don't feel this is the place for this topic..... No hard feelings intended or inferred. We fix car amps here, and offer self help to those that need it and ask for it. The rest IMO has its place elsewhere....
In the time I was composing this response I have seen this post take off like a wild fire with a whole world of input on a subject that none of us are in a position to do anything about. This is why I feel this post has no business being here. Venting may feel good but is usually just a huge waste of time, that risks offense to others. We fix car amps here among other car audio related issues. I like that focus and am just trying to maintain a focused direction to the forum...
I wish you all well in your efforts to tell GM and Ford how to run there business, but I want to talk about car audio repair issues here again....
Shame, i find it very interesting to hear what people feel and think about the current situation of the big three.
This place is as good as any.
This place is as good as any.
1moreamp
I think that you should address this to the person who started this thread not me. As I said, I was asked to post my opinion since I had a fairly high level job in Automotive and knew a great deal about the situation.
Should this thread be here? Well I really don't know. I guess that all I would say is that the topic clearly states what its about and if that does not interest you then why read it?
I think that you should address this to the person who started this thread not me. As I said, I was asked to post my opinion since I had a fairly high level job in Automotive and knew a great deal about the situation.
Should this thread be here? Well I really don't know. I guess that all I would say is that the topic clearly states what its about and if that does not interest you then why read it?
I'll move this to Off Topic and state again the forum rule against any sort of political discussion. Not that anyone has done that yet, but it's edged in that direction a few times.
The big three are looking for loans they will repay---not handouts.
The last time this was done, it was Lee Iaccoca, and Chrysler. They had a 28 year run after that The minivan, for example. Billions of $$ in 'economic multipliers'. 28 years worth.
Right now...the scum on wall street took the undeserved handout with glee from their friends in the FED. One hand feeds the other........
Wall street deserves to crash--the big three do not. Only 3-piece suit types would go down with that ship. Manufacturing and commodities would be ---just fine. Yet it is the scum that is receiving the free ride???
The current trend is predicated on a 0.3 change in GDP.
If the big three fail, the loss is in the range of 4 million jobs lost. The economic multipliers and job loss multipliers are huge.
Folks are talking about 'depression' on this 0.3% change in GDP.
Imagine what loosing the big three will do..at 4% loss of GDP.
The funds they are looking for are minuscule compared to the financial bailouts. However, unlike the financial bailouts which only help oily wall street types -who KNEW what they were doing in the original rape process- Any proposed 'big three' bailout funds keeps America alive----PERIOD. END OF STORY.
The people who are saying that the big three bailout should not happen..just happen to have foreign car company manufacturing plants in their given state.
Small minded greed perhaps? If the US economy collapses, who will buy their cars then?
Dig Deeper guys, than any given 30 second sound bite on CNN, or one article in newsweek.
The big three MUST be saved, otherwise you are in HUMONGOUS Doo-Doo.
The last time this was done, it was Lee Iaccoca, and Chrysler. They had a 28 year run after that The minivan, for example. Billions of $$ in 'economic multipliers'. 28 years worth.
Right now...the scum on wall street took the undeserved handout with glee from their friends in the FED. One hand feeds the other........
Wall street deserves to crash--the big three do not. Only 3-piece suit types would go down with that ship. Manufacturing and commodities would be ---just fine. Yet it is the scum that is receiving the free ride???
The current trend is predicated on a 0.3 change in GDP.
If the big three fail, the loss is in the range of 4 million jobs lost. The economic multipliers and job loss multipliers are huge.
Folks are talking about 'depression' on this 0.3% change in GDP.
Imagine what loosing the big three will do..at 4% loss of GDP.
The funds they are looking for are minuscule compared to the financial bailouts. However, unlike the financial bailouts which only help oily wall street types -who KNEW what they were doing in the original rape process- Any proposed 'big three' bailout funds keeps America alive----PERIOD. END OF STORY.
The people who are saying that the big three bailout should not happen..just happen to have foreign car company manufacturing plants in their given state.
Small minded greed perhaps? If the US economy collapses, who will buy their cars then?
Dig Deeper guys, than any given 30 second sound bite on CNN, or one article in newsweek.
The big three MUST be saved, otherwise you are in HUMONGOUS Doo-Doo.
Please keep in mind that I never said that the big 3 should "go away" only that they should go into bankruptcy, i.e. Chapter 11, NOT Chapter 7. That there will be a Ford, GM and Chrysler in the future is, in my mind, a given. But with Chapter 11 they could get out from under the shackles that make them non-competitive and rise again to be great companies. Don't get me wrong, the US must have an Auto business, but it has to be a competitive one.
That the US (North America) needs to get away from "finance" centric and become, once again a nation which produces value is also, in my mind, a given. But to do this will require a remaking of the entire structure to be more on a level field with the rest of the world. Our current stand as the "elite" of the world cannot survive. Forstalling the inevitable will only make it worse.
That the US (North America) needs to get away from "finance" centric and become, once again a nation which produces value is also, in my mind, a given. But to do this will require a remaking of the entire structure to be more on a level field with the rest of the world. Our current stand as the "elite" of the world cannot survive. Forstalling the inevitable will only make it worse.
I agree that the legacy issue is paramount, but if the trigger were in your hand I expect hesitation and re-thinking would be the order of the day. Compromise of some sort.
I have literally been in the position of having to kill my own Pup on more than one occasion, and it does not ever get easier. For all the right reasons.
Nor Am I indicating to the casual reader any sort of implication of any kind in your direction -of any leanings. I'm just saying.
Ideally, some sort of cutting of the legacy $ value, shared across the board..and then use the steam and anger of the individual affected to investigate wall street. Stay focused, people. All must contribute toward the needed result and direction,as all are guilty in their own way of failing to inform themselves-by not waking up about media ownership and control issues.
I have literally been in the position of having to kill my own Pup on more than one occasion, and it does not ever get easier. For all the right reasons.
Nor Am I indicating to the casual reader any sort of implication of any kind in your direction -of any leanings. I'm just saying.
Ideally, some sort of cutting of the legacy $ value, shared across the board..and then use the steam and anger of the individual affected to investigate wall street. Stay focused, people. All must contribute toward the needed result and direction,as all are guilty in their own way of failing to inform themselves-by not waking up about media ownership and control issues.
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