First of all, I want to say that I haven't had the chance to listen to any of them.
Second of all, since I'm in the process of buying/building without prior listening of the equipment, I've decided that I need to read some of your thoughts about the measuring vs listening debate.
This guy, NwAvGuy, well known in the audio community, claims that he has built a totally transparent DAC and a totally transparent headphone amplifier on the cheap side.
However, for such bold claims, I was expecting to see reviews from respected entities and even comparisons with high-end products.
That's not the case here (please correct me if I'm wrong), most of the reviews are from people with limited budgets, comparisons with other products from the same price range, eg Schiit magni/modi.
Most of the reviews describe them as good, neutral, but nothing amazing or unheard, etc. On the opposite side, there is also a large number of forum voices describing the sound as: boring, cold, harsh, aggressive, thin mids/sound, typical Sabre shrillness, wrong timbre typical with Sigma-Delta DACs, etc.
At this point, I'm assuming that we're used to listen to "lies" and when we receive the "truth" we don't like it anymore.
Also, I assume that the recordings are mastered in such a way so that they would sound good on a wide range of audio systems. But this makes me wonder, why would they sound boring/cold/harsh/aggressive/etc on neutral systems?
I can't believe that the average system would be a dynamics enhancer, forgiving, with thick mids, soft highs, etc in order to justify such a mastering.
Finally, does measuring say the whole story? Can you show a measurement that could examplain thin mids/silky highs/sabre sound/wrong timbre/r2r DAC sound?
For example, is totaldac all about measurements? Or are there also some "magic" distortions that were added for "total musicality"?
Second of all, since I'm in the process of buying/building without prior listening of the equipment, I've decided that I need to read some of your thoughts about the measuring vs listening debate.
This guy, NwAvGuy, well known in the audio community, claims that he has built a totally transparent DAC and a totally transparent headphone amplifier on the cheap side.
However, for such bold claims, I was expecting to see reviews from respected entities and even comparisons with high-end products.
That's not the case here (please correct me if I'm wrong), most of the reviews are from people with limited budgets, comparisons with other products from the same price range, eg Schiit magni/modi.
Most of the reviews describe them as good, neutral, but nothing amazing or unheard, etc. On the opposite side, there is also a large number of forum voices describing the sound as: boring, cold, harsh, aggressive, thin mids/sound, typical Sabre shrillness, wrong timbre typical with Sigma-Delta DACs, etc.
At this point, I'm assuming that we're used to listen to "lies" and when we receive the "truth" we don't like it anymore.
Also, I assume that the recordings are mastered in such a way so that they would sound good on a wide range of audio systems. But this makes me wonder, why would they sound boring/cold/harsh/aggressive/etc on neutral systems?
I can't believe that the average system would be a dynamics enhancer, forgiving, with thick mids, soft highs, etc in order to justify such a mastering.
Finally, does measuring say the whole story? Can you show a measurement that could examplain thin mids/silky highs/sabre sound/wrong timbre/r2r DAC sound?
For example, is totaldac all about measurements? Or are there also some "magic" distortions that were added for "total musicality"?
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The claim to transparency is just that, a claim. When cross-examined RocketScientist (as he was known here prior to his disappearance) pointed to the claims of one of his favourite gurus, Ethan Winer. The claim to transparency it seems rested on Ethan Winer's claims as no evidence was forthcoming in support of the claim.
Expansion,
I get the impression that any answers you receive will not be satisfactory. 🙂
I suggest to just purchase the combination and decide for yourself if the subjective performance is to your liking. (Yours is the only opinion that matters.) If not, you can always sell it/them and be out limited $$$.
Dave.
I get the impression that any answers you receive will not be satisfactory. 🙂
I suggest to just purchase the combination and decide for yourself if the subjective performance is to your liking. (Yours is the only opinion that matters.) If not, you can always sell it/them and be out limited $$$.
Dave.
No one has looked at the measurement for the ODAC and pointed out something that is clearly audible either. So it sits in the no mans land where subjectivists and objectivists slug it out.
Many people like a coloured sound so when they hear something that tends to neutral they call it 'boring' where as a big dose of 2nd harmonic is 'exciting'. If they are not after hi-fidelity that is their choice. Which you want it up to you. Either hifi, or a personalised effects unit to give you a nice sounding system. Neither approach is wrong of course.
Many people like a coloured sound so when they hear something that tends to neutral they call it 'boring' where as a big dose of 2nd harmonic is 'exciting'. If they are not after hi-fidelity that is their choice. Which you want it up to you. Either hifi, or a personalised effects unit to give you a nice sounding system. Neither approach is wrong of course.
I personally don't think too much over such things.
The same guy who says "yuck sigma-delta sound" can also say "oooo bitstream is the future".
The same guy who says "yuck sigma-delta sound" can also say "oooo bitstream is the future".
A genuinely neutral system will never sound "boring/cold/harsh/aggressive". However, there are very few systems that are genuinely neutral!! "Total musicality" is achieved when all audibly disturbing distortions are eliminated, not added!
The problem is, the measurement game is pretty hopeless at pointing to the last, very important deficiences that a very high percentage of systems - as a chain of components - have, meaning that many do sound "boring/cold/harsh/aggressive", etc 😉. At the moment this concept of total system "cleaniness" is only looked at in a very token way, and the end result is plenty of pretty crap sound, I'm afraid! 😀
The solution? Look at the big picture, eliminate the weak links - key is that ordinary components can produce 'magic' sound; and 'magic' components mostly produce ordinary sound - it's the attitude and perspective of the person assembling and optimising the system that's the most important component ...
Ah yes one more thing I remembered
Many of the people who just started playing audio, how would they know what neutral and accurate sounds like if they haven't owned neutral and accurate systems before?
Many of the people who just started playing audio, how would they know what neutral and accurate sounds like if they haven't owned neutral and accurate systems before?
subjective evaluation also has Science, methods, requirements for acceptable tests
the audiophile community, rags like Stereophile discovered long ago that "stories" are more compelling, sell more ads, magazines than explaining, using perceptual science
the founder of Stereophile plead mea culpa after he left, admitted the uncontrolled subjective reviews without references, standards, controls has done damage to the advancement of music reproduction
ultimately a digital recording is "a measurement" - a string of numbers - but the interpretation, how it will affect listeners is likely beyond us - maybe an AI that can model and inspect a simulated human mind and body could tell us more
you can't reasonably ask for "the whole story" - its never going to fit in current human minds
at the same time those soaking up the audiophile press version of the world discount what Science, Engineering, the musicians, recording engineers, speaker designers, anyone involved with the process says when they talk about what is understood, how you test, verify those understandings - because they "can't explain everything"
many audiophile stories don't stand up to controlled listening tests - cherished "night and day" verities fade to "I can't tell the difference"
so we then get faced with the barrage of post hoc attacks on Psychoacoustic Science, methods, controls for listening with our fallible and biased to cheat at the deepest levels human brains
I would say that few companies are willing to put their product up against a product like the ODAC. It is relatively inexpensive, measures better than products of all price ranges and is on the extreme top end when it comes to performance. ODAC has been presented as a standard, along with all the measurements and data required to be measured against. Comparing your product to such a well documented product could easily put you in a bad position.
Lets assume you are a dac maker that has a high quality product that is rather expensive and you put it head to head against the ODAC. Any difference in sound is going to attributed to deficiencies in your measured performance. From there the differences are then going to be seen as a less competent design for a higher price. You aren't going to find a single company that is going to be willing to do that.
I am not saying that the ODAC is the best DAC in the world but I have yet to see anything properly measured that compares from a different manufacturer. Subjectively I have listened to all sorts of audiocard, cd player, mp3 players, dacs, etc. and I have found it to be second to none . If someone has a DAC that measures and sounds better, subjectively to them, I would seek it out. I have yet to see such a recommendation though.
Lets assume you are a dac maker that has a high quality product that is rather expensive and you put it head to head against the ODAC. Any difference in sound is going to attributed to deficiencies in your measured performance. From there the differences are then going to be seen as a less competent design for a higher price. You aren't going to find a single company that is going to be willing to do that.
I am not saying that the ODAC is the best DAC in the world but I have yet to see anything properly measured that compares from a different manufacturer. Subjectively I have listened to all sorts of audiocard, cd player, mp3 players, dacs, etc. and I have found it to be second to none . If someone has a DAC that measures and sounds better, subjectively to them, I would seek it out. I have yet to see such a recommendation though.
This is admittedly a rather old thread but some relevant new measurement results have come to light which seem to me to be pertinent. Over on Gearslutz someone's used 'Diffmaker' in evaluating the JPS Labs ODAC and found differences between input and output (via an RME Fireface ADC) with maximum amplitude around -45dB.
Gearslutz Pro Audio Community - View Single Post - Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker
Gearslutz Pro Audio Community - View Single Post - Evaluating AD/DA loops by means of Audio Diffmaker
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