So I've been working on a custom amplifier, and it's mostly built and sounds good. As an afterthought, I measured the voltage between the the live and neutral, and it measured 230V as expected here in Spain. When I measured the live to the ground though, expecting 230V, it measured 135V. I measured neutral to ground, and it also measured 135V. I know for sure there is a ground wire in all the plugs because I paid someone to do a full rewrite of my apartment three years ago.
I used a plug tester, and it showed "open ground". I contacted an electrician here, assuming it was a problem, and they said that it's quite common in Spain for ground to not actually be connected to anything, since in older apartments there literally is no building ground to tie into. And of course, not being on the first floor, there is no where to drive a stake to put one in.
I thought he was full of crap, so I contacted another British electrician here in Spain, and he confirmed it. He said the grounds are still all connected together and they provide an escape path for a stray current, which the residual current device in the consumer panel would then detect and trip the breaker. I have tested the RCD using a downstream RCD tester, and it works properly, so I think he is right in that there is still protection. I believe in North America this is valid as well using a GFCI when there is no ground available. But it boggles my mind though that there is a ground wire that isn't actually at 0V.
Anyways, it is what it is, but I'm just curious how that affects an amplifier? I'm guessing the chassis isn't really earthed then, and it's not really providing any EMI suppression? I was laughing at my ground lift circuit, since my whole apartment is essentially a ground lift circuit.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
I used a plug tester, and it showed "open ground". I contacted an electrician here, assuming it was a problem, and they said that it's quite common in Spain for ground to not actually be connected to anything, since in older apartments there literally is no building ground to tie into. And of course, not being on the first floor, there is no where to drive a stake to put one in.
I thought he was full of crap, so I contacted another British electrician here in Spain, and he confirmed it. He said the grounds are still all connected together and they provide an escape path for a stray current, which the residual current device in the consumer panel would then detect and trip the breaker. I have tested the RCD using a downstream RCD tester, and it works properly, so I think he is right in that there is still protection. I believe in North America this is valid as well using a GFCI when there is no ground available. But it boggles my mind though that there is a ground wire that isn't actually at 0V.
Anyways, it is what it is, but I'm just curious how that affects an amplifier? I'm guessing the chassis isn't really earthed then, and it's not really providing any EMI suppression? I was laughing at my ground lift circuit, since my whole apartment is essentially a ground lift circuit.
Any thoughts? Thanks.
Any of the Yamaha’s r—202, 303, 403,or pioneers or Marantz PM5005/7007/6006/NR1200 amps those that are entry level or near mid level.
I have not seen a earth ie they all have a pin plugs.
But the chassis are tied to ground via screw point or different ground having screw tabs that would make the chassis as a common ground.
Saying this after seeing service manuals
But the DIY world always say’s safety first.
I have not seen a earth ie they all have a pin plugs.
But the chassis are tied to ground via screw point or different ground having screw tabs that would make the chassis as a common ground.
Saying this after seeing service manuals
But the DIY world always say’s safety first.
I deleted the comment as I could be wrong but I think we need some expert here.
I am not sure if we should use it with a floating condition,
In my building We have individual earth wire going from each flat/apparent to a ground pit. And have ELCB and McB’s for each room and line type
I am not sure if we should use it with a floating condition,
In my building We have individual earth wire going from each flat/apparent to a ground pit. And have ELCB and McB’s for each room and line type
It's still safe (arguably) since the entire apartment is protected with a Residual Current Device (RCD). Basically, even though the ground is floating, if any current goes down that wire (or into the chassis, or into a person), the RCD will disconnect the entire circuit since there is a mismatch between the current in the live wire and the current returning in the neutral. That's why it's still allowed. But the ground isn't at 0V, which is what is weird to me.
I have a Myriad CDP that is a class 2 device so no PE connection (at all!) and the system is entirely floating with only the RCA connection shield being the link to earth (through another component's connection to earth). The CDP has a only a 2 pin IEC (type 17?) connector.
Well of course in North America if you measured each side of a 220/240 line to ground you would find 110/120. That’s because the transformer feeding your residence has a center tap that is used as “neutral” and that is tied to ground.
Your Spanish installation reminds me of the old Biphasé installations in France. There was no center tap and each side of the mains was ~110 volts above ground. Many residences had no ground, or it wasn’t tightly bonded like in NA. So measurements from hot to ground were somewhat vague.
In the USA I had a house with GFI and no ground - which I found bizarre until I realized that GFI is just a differential breaker (long used in France at the main panel) that doesn’t care about ground. All it cares about is an imbalance between the current in the two wires. If one wire is carrying more current than the other, then the imbalance must be going somewhere that it should not be going. Maybe you! 🙂 A clever safety feature.
The term RCD is new to me, but I suppose that it’s a differential breaker. Keep us informed of what you find. It’s nice to know about different wiring across the globe.
Your Spanish installation reminds me of the old Biphasé installations in France. There was no center tap and each side of the mains was ~110 volts above ground. Many residences had no ground, or it wasn’t tightly bonded like in NA. So measurements from hot to ground were somewhat vague.
In the USA I had a house with GFI and no ground - which I found bizarre until I realized that GFI is just a differential breaker (long used in France at the main panel) that doesn’t care about ground. All it cares about is an imbalance between the current in the two wires. If one wire is carrying more current than the other, then the imbalance must be going somewhere that it should not be going. Maybe you! 🙂 A clever safety feature.
The term RCD is new to me, but I suppose that it’s a differential breaker. Keep us informed of what you find. It’s nice to know about different wiring across the globe.
Yes, the RCD is the same technology. It measures the current difference between the hot and neutral and breaks the connection in roughly 1 mains cycle. So like in France, it's considered safe. But it is weird to me that it's not grounded. In North America you literally tie ground and neutral together in the breaker panel, and keep them separate after, but in Spain they don't do that for some reason and just leave ground floating (at least in old apartments like mine, even after being reformed).
I remember working with electric systems in Spain, but it was decades ago. Similar to France IIRC.
The idea of Biphasé was so that you got 220 volts across the mains but any one side was only 110v from ground. At home it was that way but at work it was 220v on one side. That bit a LOT harder than 110. I can attest. 😱
You mentioned that you measured from neutral to ground. How did you determine neutral? Euro plugs aren’t polarized, are they?
The idea of Biphasé was so that you got 220 volts across the mains but any one side was only 110v from ground. At home it was that way but at work it was 220v on one side. That bit a LOT harder than 110. I can attest. 😱
You mentioned that you measured from neutral to ground. How did you determine neutral? Euro plugs aren’t polarized, are they?
Well, the neutral is technically supposed to be grounded I think by the power company here. So the neutral should read 0V to ground and live to ground should be 230V. In my case you’re right I don’t really know which is which. But if I had a proper ground they would have shown a difference. At least in theory (in Spain you’re also supposed to assume both sides are live in case something is wired incorrectly).
Yes. About 30-40 years ago there was a slow transition to an earth bonded neutral. Not sure why, maybe it is safer? But without knowing which side is which….
All that said it still doesn’t answer your original question!
All that said it still doesn’t answer your original question!
The amplifier only cares that the enclosure is connected to the signal ground. This connection is essential for the enclosure to act as a shield.
Connecting the enclosure to the earth ground is for safety. Most consumer audio equipment is not connected to the earth ground and has 2-prong plugs.
Ed
Connecting the enclosure to the earth ground is for safety. Most consumer audio equipment is not connected to the earth ground and has 2-prong plugs.
Ed
there is bound to be one gear in the chain that used the IEC power inlet and the ground pin is indeed grounded to chassis...
You're missing the point - the earth pin of my entire apartment is not connected to 0V. So nothing using an IEC pin will have a ground at 0V. That's the point of this post.