I replaced the internal crossovers for my Paradigm Studio 60 speakers with an external crossover upgrade. I'm very happy with the new sound for my HT system.
The crossover was not redesigned with new values. The values of each component have not changed significantly but I decided to use better quality parts for the project.
The capacitors are Mundorf EVO aluminum caps. The resistors are Mundorf Supremes. The inductors are Solen perfect lay air core coils.
I used #18 and #21 Auric wire for the crossover boards and inside the enclosures.
The original plan was to mount the new crossovers inside the boxes but I decided to do an external crossover for ease of access and to reduce microphonics. Also, I wanted to space the crossovers as far from the drivers as possible.
The sound is now smooth with good detail . The bass is tight. The treble is never harsh.
For future tweaks, I may try the Mundorf supreme cap on the tweeter for fun. I may also increase the size of the wire for the woofer. More listening will determine what I do next for this project.
I would be happy to answer any questions.
The crossover was not redesigned with new values. The values of each component have not changed significantly but I decided to use better quality parts for the project.
The capacitors are Mundorf EVO aluminum caps. The resistors are Mundorf Supremes. The inductors are Solen perfect lay air core coils.
I used #18 and #21 Auric wire for the crossover boards and inside the enclosures.
The original plan was to mount the new crossovers inside the boxes but I decided to do an external crossover for ease of access and to reduce microphonics. Also, I wanted to space the crossovers as far from the drivers as possible.
The sound is now smooth with good detail . The bass is tight. The treble is never harsh.
For future tweaks, I may try the Mundorf supreme cap on the tweeter for fun. I may also increase the size of the wire for the woofer. More listening will determine what I do next for this project.
I would be happy to answer any questions.
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I have not used the newer Mundorfs but I sure like the Supreme and adding a silver oil and gold bypass capacitor on those supreme are very enjoyable.
Keep us posted what you think of the new caps .Looks Like nice work..
I have built well over a few hundred speakers with Mundorfs and personally really enjoy the supreme caps.If you do get them I think you will enjoy the investment.
This set of HT8i used Mundorf Supreme SilverGold and Oil bypass caps 12G foils and Duelands
Keep us posted what you think of the new caps .Looks Like nice work..
I have built well over a few hundred speakers with Mundorfs and personally really enjoy the supreme caps.If you do get them I think you will enjoy the investment.
This set of HT8i used Mundorf Supreme SilverGold and Oil bypass caps 12G foils and Duelands
It is truly amazing what a few upgraded crossover parts can do. I like your choice of components.
In the future try a few other 'things',
1) No words can describe how good the Duelund Cast PIO's are for the tweeter. I know they are brutally expensive, but once you've added them to your tweeter, nothing else will do.
2) Conduct your own experiment, especially with the tweeter. Find some single stand, Teflon wrapped wire. Do not worry about the guage. Try going smaller and smaller. My ears settled on 28 awg as the best for me. YMMV
In the future try a few other 'things',
1) No words can describe how good the Duelund Cast PIO's are for the tweeter. I know they are brutally expensive, but once you've added them to your tweeter, nothing else will do.
2) Conduct your own experiment, especially with the tweeter. Find some single stand, Teflon wrapped wire. Do not worry about the guage. Try going smaller and smaller. My ears settled on 28 awg as the best for me. YMMV
Thanks everyone for your feedback. We can learn a lot from each other.
I can report back to you guys once the crossovers have about 50 hours of use.
I think I'll be doing a lot of tweeter tweaking in the future. The original tweeter inductor was #26. The treble was weak. The new inductor is #20. I picked this size because I have tested #16 and #18 tweeter wire. If you increase the wire size too much (lower the gauge number) you get more bass and less treble. So I think the ideal wire size is between #20 and #26 for these tweeters. I'm using #21 Auric wire now and the treble is never harsh or weak. I think there is some value in fine tuning this wire size.
I will probably add a bypass Vishay MKP1837 0.01uF cap to the EVO cap for the next test. Then replace the EVO with the Supreme cap, listen, and add the Vishay bypass cap and listen.
I'm leaning towards using either a very small bypass cap or none at all. I have used 10% bypass caps for other speaker projects but did get weird ringing or resonance issues.
The Dueland PIO option is too expensive. Since I will eventually be upgrading the crossovers for all my HT speakers, the cost would be prohibitive.
Hope this information helps you with your future projects.
I can report back to you guys once the crossovers have about 50 hours of use.
I think I'll be doing a lot of tweeter tweaking in the future. The original tweeter inductor was #26. The treble was weak. The new inductor is #20. I picked this size because I have tested #16 and #18 tweeter wire. If you increase the wire size too much (lower the gauge number) you get more bass and less treble. So I think the ideal wire size is between #20 and #26 for these tweeters. I'm using #21 Auric wire now and the treble is never harsh or weak. I think there is some value in fine tuning this wire size.
I will probably add a bypass Vishay MKP1837 0.01uF cap to the EVO cap for the next test. Then replace the EVO with the Supreme cap, listen, and add the Vishay bypass cap and listen.
I'm leaning towards using either a very small bypass cap or none at all. I have used 10% bypass caps for other speaker projects but did get weird ringing or resonance issues.
The Dueland PIO option is too expensive. Since I will eventually be upgrading the crossovers for all my HT speakers, the cost would be prohibitive.
Hope this information helps you with your future projects.
I guess that your speakers will not sound the same after you replace the laminated core inductors with the air core inductors or different wire gauges of the inductors (different DC resistances). Different DC resistance of woofer's inductor can effect to the balance of the woofers and the tweeter.
That's a very good point.
It's important to preserve the dc resistance of the original crossover because it is part of the design. If you don't do that the level of each driver will change and the crossover points will shift.
Unfortunately your average digital multimeter measures low resistance poorly and voltage very well.
So I build a constant current source using a LM317K chip for measuring very low resistance. About $10 for the parts. So now you can measure the voltage very accurately with the meter connected across your "resistor" and calculate the resistance because the current is constant. Ohms law.
For each new inductor, I picked the gauge to match the dcr of the old inductor as closely as possible. For the capacitors, the old bennic caps will always have a higher dcr than a PP capacitor. But I think the dcr of the inductors has a more significant effect on the performance.
The original tweeter inductor had a higher dcr than the replacement. So I increased the value of the tweeter series resistor so the tweeter would have the same "volume" level.
It's important to preserve the dc resistance of the original crossover because it is part of the design. If you don't do that the level of each driver will change and the crossover points will shift.
Unfortunately your average digital multimeter measures low resistance poorly and voltage very well.
So I build a constant current source using a LM317K chip for measuring very low resistance. About $10 for the parts. So now you can measure the voltage very accurately with the meter connected across your "resistor" and calculate the resistance because the current is constant. Ohms law.
For each new inductor, I picked the gauge to match the dcr of the old inductor as closely as possible. For the capacitors, the old bennic caps will always have a higher dcr than a PP capacitor. But I think the dcr of the inductors has a more significant effect on the performance.
The original tweeter inductor had a higher dcr than the replacement. So I increased the value of the tweeter series resistor so the tweeter would have the same "volume" level.
Audio Nut
thank you for report
would you please tell us what were old replaced caps - Bennics - poly XPP ? or lytic ?
thank you for report
would you please tell us what were old replaced caps - Bennics - poly XPP ? or lytic ?
For the bass and midrange drivers, the caps were Bennic np electrolytics. For the tweeter, a Bennic yellow PP cap.
overkill!
using expensive crossover parts only make the manufacturers rich, but not the sound! It may sound different, but will it sound better?
using expensive crossover parts only make the manufacturers rich, but not the sound! It may sound different, but will it sound better?
It's a fair question. I think after a while our ears get tired with even the best sound and crave a difference. This explains why cables change hands so often. Or why some of us have the need to build a new amp every few months.
Just wanted to give you guys an update on my project.
I removed my original EVO aluminum tweeter cap and tried two other caps for fun.
The first cap was a EVO aluminum oil cap. This cap is perfect for taming a bright system and it will smooth out the sound giving it a more musical quality. However, I found the placement of instruments within the sound field was slightly less localized and fine detail very slightly veiled compared to the original cap. I also noticed the seating position was less critical for this cap which can be a benefit.
The second cap was a Supreme "plain vanilla" cap. This cap provides a nice musical sound with instruments easily localized within the sound field. Fine details are not veiled.
The Supreme cap was the perfect match for my aluminum dome tweeter. The original EVO cap had a slightly dry or clinical quality about it. I prefer a slightly musical sound for the tweeter.
My next test will compare the EVO aluminum cap with a Mundorf MKP cap for the woofer section of my crossover.
I removed my original EVO aluminum tweeter cap and tried two other caps for fun.
The first cap was a EVO aluminum oil cap. This cap is perfect for taming a bright system and it will smooth out the sound giving it a more musical quality. However, I found the placement of instruments within the sound field was slightly less localized and fine detail very slightly veiled compared to the original cap. I also noticed the seating position was less critical for this cap which can be a benefit.
The second cap was a Supreme "plain vanilla" cap. This cap provides a nice musical sound with instruments easily localized within the sound field. Fine details are not veiled.
The Supreme cap was the perfect match for my aluminum dome tweeter. The original EVO cap had a slightly dry or clinical quality about it. I prefer a slightly musical sound for the tweeter.
My next test will compare the EVO aluminum cap with a Mundorf MKP cap for the woofer section of my crossover.
Not the standard white mcap or mkp. It is the Supreme cap that I tested.
Mundorf has 4 versions of the Supreme cap. They are the Supreme (I call it plain vanilla), Supreme silver oil, Supreme silver gold, and the Supreme silver gold oil.
Sorry for the confusion.
Mundorf has 4 versions of the Supreme cap. They are the Supreme (I call it plain vanilla), Supreme silver oil, Supreme silver gold, and the Supreme silver gold oil.
Sorry for the confusion.
I have more test results for you guys.
I replaced the 22uF EVO Aluminum cap of my bass woofer with a 22uF Mundorf MKP. The MKP delivers slightly more punch but I found the overall bass had slightly less detail compared to the EVO. My preference is more detailed bass so the EVO is the winner here.
Next, I replaced the 12uF EVO aluminum cap of my midrange woofer with a 12uF MKP. The MKP had some decent detail but I noticed a very slight (occasional) harshness to the sound. So I would recommend the EVO cap for a more natural sound with excellent detail.
Finally I replaced the midrange EVO with 8.2uF and 3.9uF Supreme caps in parallel. The Supremes delivered a smooth always natural sound but I noticed detail and dynamics were noticeably reduced compared to the EVO.
I was very surprised with these findings. I was expecting the midrange Supremes would complement the 6.8uF Supremes of my tweeters. So the EVO is the "clear" winner for my midrange.
My speakers use a mica woofer for the midrange and the EVO is the perfect match for this driver. Perhaps the Supreme is a better match for a high efficiency domed midrange but this is a guess.
I'm testing different bypass capacitors now.
I replaced the 22uF EVO Aluminum cap of my bass woofer with a 22uF Mundorf MKP. The MKP delivers slightly more punch but I found the overall bass had slightly less detail compared to the EVO. My preference is more detailed bass so the EVO is the winner here.
Next, I replaced the 12uF EVO aluminum cap of my midrange woofer with a 12uF MKP. The MKP had some decent detail but I noticed a very slight (occasional) harshness to the sound. So I would recommend the EVO cap for a more natural sound with excellent detail.
Finally I replaced the midrange EVO with 8.2uF and 3.9uF Supreme caps in parallel. The Supremes delivered a smooth always natural sound but I noticed detail and dynamics were noticeably reduced compared to the EVO.
I was very surprised with these findings. I was expecting the midrange Supremes would complement the 6.8uF Supremes of my tweeters. So the EVO is the "clear" winner for my midrange.
My speakers use a mica woofer for the midrange and the EVO is the perfect match for this driver. Perhaps the Supreme is a better match for a high efficiency domed midrange but this is a guess.
I'm testing different bypass capacitors now.
curious as to why the oil version has a 'veil' - was it run in?
These caps are the same price point as the well reviewed Obbligato golds, altho the Evo's come in values above 47uf
I break in caps for at least two days before doing any testing. The Supremes had a very slight veiled sound which is the analog sound that most people prefer.
I did consider getting the Obbligatos but I noticed the limited size selection of the golds.
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