(This was originally erroneously posted in the general Loudspeakers forum yesterday)
I’m trying to compare folded basshorns. I’d have a crack at designing a straight horn, but no way a folded horn.
Most basshorns are overkill in dB for the home.
For us 'audiophiles' who want dynamics, rather than trance music fans 🙄 – suggestions for the * most “musical” basshorn c. 40 to 100 Hz* would be appreciated.
Several have enough output ~ but what is the smoothest and eg able to play both electric and non electric instruments eg double bass in a natural non fatiguing way?
I’ve found (in no particular order):
- LABhorn (of the different versions Brad Litz's supposedly has more output 30-60 Hz)?
- Wayne’s 12 Pi using the same LABhorn drivers? www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/17387.html (mark 2 being developed now)
- Loudspeakerguru aka Jeff Robinson’s single LABhorn driver www.geocities.com/loudspeakerguru/DWG58.gif Very interesting folding, but has anyone heard what it sounds like?
From Bruce Edgar:
- the 1986 Monolith
- 1988 Show Horn (12 JPGs at www.volvotreter.de/dl-section.htm) EVM12L based (luckily there’s a B&C driver with very similar specs), or
- centre channel horn that exhausts on the floor (briefly outlined at www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htm 75% of the way down). Has he done a more recent basshorn??
- the 186 www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=hornplans ?
- Bill FitzM's Tuba 24, 24 Slim or Table Tuba www.billfitzmaurice.com/plans/produ.../products_id/23 ?
- a Khorn (Klipschorn corner horn reproduction)??
Most talk is about how loud they go, but
~ which should have the best chance of sounding good?
Are any of them available in CAD files that you can take to a computer-based woodcutter for the many difficult shapes ???
Only Edgar to my knowledge was interested in good reproduction in the home, so maybe ? the Show Horn with a replacement B&C driver?? Ore has horn design improved since then?
Thanks!
Richard
I’m trying to compare folded basshorns. I’d have a crack at designing a straight horn, but no way a folded horn.
Most basshorns are overkill in dB for the home.
For us 'audiophiles' who want dynamics, rather than trance music fans 🙄 – suggestions for the * most “musical” basshorn c. 40 to 100 Hz* would be appreciated.
Several have enough output ~ but what is the smoothest and eg able to play both electric and non electric instruments eg double bass in a natural non fatiguing way?
I’ve found (in no particular order):
- LABhorn (of the different versions Brad Litz's supposedly has more output 30-60 Hz)?
- Wayne’s 12 Pi using the same LABhorn drivers? www.audioroundtable.com/PiSpeakers/messages/17387.html (mark 2 being developed now)
- Loudspeakerguru aka Jeff Robinson’s single LABhorn driver www.geocities.com/loudspeakerguru/DWG58.gif Very interesting folding, but has anyone heard what it sounds like?
From Bruce Edgar:
- the 1986 Monolith
- 1988 Show Horn (12 JPGs at www.volvotreter.de/dl-section.htm) EVM12L based (luckily there’s a B&C driver with very similar specs), or
- centre channel horn that exhausts on the floor (briefly outlined at www.positive-feedback.com/Issue4/edgarinterview.htm 75% of the way down). Has he done a more recent basshorn??
- the 186 www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=hornplans ?
- Bill FitzM's Tuba 24, 24 Slim or Table Tuba www.billfitzmaurice.com/plans/produ.../products_id/23 ?
- a Khorn (Klipschorn corner horn reproduction)??
Most talk is about how loud they go, but
~ which should have the best chance of sounding good?
Are any of them available in CAD files that you can take to a computer-based woodcutter for the many difficult shapes ???
Only Edgar to my knowledge was interested in good reproduction in the home, so maybe ? the Show Horn with a replacement B&C driver?? Ore has horn design improved since then?
Thanks!
Richard
Labhorn
twelve pi
Fitz
They will all have that low distortion 'horn sound.What differs is the frequency response. Note that your room will have something like a 6dB/octave gain below some 1/2 frequency relative to your room dimensions[some one correct that if wrong]
No doubt the labhorn will provide plenty of SPL and a low cutoff in a corner. The issue is,do you require it?
The twelve pi is an excellent beastie. But again,its purpose is to gain a few dB more SPL and a few dB lower distortion,which wont make any difference at 105dB SPL ie 1 -4watt levels
The fitzmaurice tubas are great size wise but have more ripple. Your room will contribure even more ripple,perhaps you could attain a nice response with lots of fiddling.
The 186 has a higher ctoff ,more for PA usage.
But,if you built a simpler horn with less crazy mitres,you wont need a computer to do it.
Conclusion : Probably a tuba 24/30 type of thing, or an edgar monolith/show horn. I cant tell you which,but obviously the bigger it is,the lower the cutoff OR higher sensitivity.
Note that using 18"s on short horns isnt really needed in the home,a more value unit will provide essentialyl the same thing with abit more horn length.
Thats why so many are going to tubas,using car woofers and all sorts lying around. People diss the tubas,but I see it as just another option.
twelve pi
Fitz
They will all have that low distortion 'horn sound.What differs is the frequency response. Note that your room will have something like a 6dB/octave gain below some 1/2 frequency relative to your room dimensions[some one correct that if wrong]
No doubt the labhorn will provide plenty of SPL and a low cutoff in a corner. The issue is,do you require it?
The twelve pi is an excellent beastie. But again,its purpose is to gain a few dB more SPL and a few dB lower distortion,which wont make any difference at 105dB SPL ie 1 -4watt levels
The fitzmaurice tubas are great size wise but have more ripple. Your room will contribure even more ripple,perhaps you could attain a nice response with lots of fiddling.
The 186 has a higher ctoff ,more for PA usage.
Some one,I dont know who,had the files for the labhorn.
But,if you built a simpler horn with less crazy mitres,you wont need a computer to do it.
Conclusion : Probably a tuba 24/30 type of thing, or an edgar monolith/show horn. I cant tell you which,but obviously the bigger it is,the lower the cutoff OR higher sensitivity.
Note that using 18"s on short horns isnt really needed in the home,a more value unit will provide essentialyl the same thing with abit more horn length.
Thats why so many are going to tubas,using car woofers and all sorts lying around. People diss the tubas,but I see it as just another option.
Room modes fail to exist underneath the frequency whose wavelength is 1/2 the longest dimension of the room. Under this point, room gain occurs.
I’ve never designed horns before, so . .
Mike
You know these horns!
> the LABhorn will provide plenty of SPL . . . do you require it?
No, not that much - 15 Db greater than need . . .
I’ve never designed horns before, so . . .
> if you built a simpler horn with less crazy mitres, you wont need a computer to do it.
I now think a simpler horn is the way to head - I have plenty of room height (3 + m, 10’+), and a concrete floor.
So to avoid complexity and give design flexibility, now thinking - why bother with existing folded designs?
I have two sets of drivers suitable for horns: a pair of 12” JBL 2202H’s, and a pair of 10” PHL 3451s (bought for another project that might not eventuate).
I also have several Peerless XLS 12s for really deep bass.
Two options make sense to me:
System A:
20 – 50 Hz: Sealed boxes (dual EQed Peerless XLS a side, with 200 watts)
50 – 200 Hz: JBL 2202H’s in a hypex horn facing down to the floor
Initial model suggests Mouth 100*57 cm (39*22”), length 226 cm (89”)
A 200 Hz crossover: wavelength/ 2 = 0.86 m (34”)
200 – 800 Hz: PHL 3451s (their Fmh is 770 Hz, EBP = 385) in a front facing tractrix horn
800 Hz – 20kHz: any good 1-2” compression driver on a prefab horn.
System B:
20 – 50 Hz: The same sealed boxes
50 – about *450 Hz: JBL 2202H’s (their Fmh is 588 Hz, EBP = 294) in a hypex horn facing down to the floor
A 450 Hz crossover: wavelength/ 2 = 380 mm (15”)
450 Hz – 7 kHz: Selenium D405 is meant to be Very good value (4" phenolic diaphragm) compression driver on appropriate prefab horn.
> 7 kHz: either Aurum Cantus 1 ribbon (love ribbon treble), actively driven; a bullet tweeter; or . . ??
What is most important to me?
1 Midrange
2 Upper bass
3 Deep bass
4 Treble.
To work out:
1 For both options, how far must the 50 Hz horn facing down to the floor, be off the floor?
2 Crossover choice: with System B, centre of midhorn must be only 380 mm (15”) from the side edge of the bass horn - ie the whole system becomes close to the floor.
3 Which should be better?
If you like compression driver mids, eg more detail (??), System B
If you like cone lower bass (= more power ???), System A.
??
Comments are very welcome! 🙂
Thanks kindly
Richard
Mike
You know these horns!
> the LABhorn will provide plenty of SPL . . . do you require it?
No, not that much - 15 Db greater than need . . .
I’ve never designed horns before, so . . .
> if you built a simpler horn with less crazy mitres, you wont need a computer to do it.
I now think a simpler horn is the way to head - I have plenty of room height (3 + m, 10’+), and a concrete floor.
So to avoid complexity and give design flexibility, now thinking - why bother with existing folded designs?
I have two sets of drivers suitable for horns: a pair of 12” JBL 2202H’s, and a pair of 10” PHL 3451s (bought for another project that might not eventuate).
I also have several Peerless XLS 12s for really deep bass.
Two options make sense to me:
System A:
20 – 50 Hz: Sealed boxes (dual EQed Peerless XLS a side, with 200 watts)
50 – 200 Hz: JBL 2202H’s in a hypex horn facing down to the floor
Initial model suggests Mouth 100*57 cm (39*22”), length 226 cm (89”)
A 200 Hz crossover: wavelength/ 2 = 0.86 m (34”)
200 – 800 Hz: PHL 3451s (their Fmh is 770 Hz, EBP = 385) in a front facing tractrix horn
800 Hz – 20kHz: any good 1-2” compression driver on a prefab horn.
System B:
20 – 50 Hz: The same sealed boxes
50 – about *450 Hz: JBL 2202H’s (their Fmh is 588 Hz, EBP = 294) in a hypex horn facing down to the floor
A 450 Hz crossover: wavelength/ 2 = 380 mm (15”)
450 Hz – 7 kHz: Selenium D405 is meant to be Very good value (4" phenolic diaphragm) compression driver on appropriate prefab horn.
> 7 kHz: either Aurum Cantus 1 ribbon (love ribbon treble), actively driven; a bullet tweeter; or . . ??
What is most important to me?
1 Midrange
2 Upper bass
3 Deep bass
4 Treble.
To work out:
1 For both options, how far must the 50 Hz horn facing down to the floor, be off the floor?
2 Crossover choice: with System B, centre of midhorn must be only 380 mm (15”) from the side edge of the bass horn - ie the whole system becomes close to the floor.
3 Which should be better?
If you like compression driver mids, eg more detail (??), System B
If you like cone lower bass (= more power ???), System A.
??
Comments are very welcome! 🙂
Thanks kindly
Richard
Re: I’ve never designed horns before, so . .
I think thats a good idea. Or atleast using a horn that is most useful with the space you have.
2 Crossover choice: with System B, centre of midhorn must be only 380 mm (15”) from the side edge of the bass horn - ie the whole system becomes close to the floor.
3 Which should be better?
If you like compression driver mids, eg more detail (??), System B
If you like cone lower bass (= more power ???), System A.
??
Comments are very welcome! 🙂
Thanks kindly
Richard [/QUOTE]
I havent heard compression driver mids.
Im not sure about having vocals coming out of the floor,a wavelength or two away from the next unit[horn in this case]
The issue is, youd need straight horns probably to extend up to 200hz.
This means a very long straight horn for 50hz,have you got the room?
Similar situation
www.volvotreter.de
It doesnt need to be an impossibly complex problem.
Mike.e
rick57 said:
I think thats a good idea. Or atleast using a horn that is most useful with the space you have.
Well edgar states that the horn path extends slightly as it turns the last corner against the floor,and appearing at the sides. This means that a larger area will be required around the perimeter of the downward facing horn,than the horn mouth actually is on the box. It can be worked out.
2 Crossover choice: with System B, centre of midhorn must be only 380 mm (15”) from the side edge of the bass horn - ie the whole system becomes close to the floor.
3 Which should be better?
If you like compression driver mids, eg more detail (??), System B
If you like cone lower bass (= more power ???), System A.
??
Comments are very welcome! 🙂
Thanks kindly
Richard [/QUOTE]
I havent heard compression driver mids.
Im not sure about having vocals coming out of the floor,a wavelength or two away from the next unit[horn in this case]
The issue is, youd need straight horns probably to extend up to 200hz.
This means a very long straight horn for 50hz,have you got the room?
Similar situation
www.volvotreter.de
It doesnt need to be an impossibly complex problem.
Mike.e
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