I have a Linn LP12, serial number 1901. I picked it up 1987 and had it updated at the time to then current standards and am still running it today. It still has the original sub-chassis. I have a Rega RB300 arm on it with a Denon cartridge.
I know there are any number of updates available – sub-chassis, power supply, etc. And they’re all bloody expensive. I think I could easily drop $1500 and quite a bit more, just on updates. Or I could unload the table, as is, probably for $1100 or so and get into something else at about the same price point or a bit more, but I have no idea what beyond the usual rep – SOTA, Well-Tempered, VPI. My wife certainly wouldn’t be happy were I to spend a whole lot more than what I could sell the LP12 for. Maybe $1500.
Suggestions?
I know there are any number of updates available – sub-chassis, power supply, etc. And they’re all bloody expensive. I think I could easily drop $1500 and quite a bit more, just on updates. Or I could unload the table, as is, probably for $1100 or so and get into something else at about the same price point or a bit more, but I have no idea what beyond the usual rep – SOTA, Well-Tempered, VPI. My wife certainly wouldn’t be happy were I to spend a whole lot more than what I could sell the LP12 for. Maybe $1500.
Suggestions?
Did you get the Valhalla & 50Hz motor/pulley?
The first upgrade is to have the RB300 rewired, if you haven't done that already. The second is a toss-up between the sub-chassis and the Valhalla. A Sole is probably the cheapest, with the Greenstreet and then Kore. For a power supply, the Hercules II mounted externally is pretty good, and far less expensive than the other options.
jeff
rayma: The rest of my system is pretty good and I have no complaints.
I run JRiver on a Linux laptop feeding into a Peachtree USB DAC.
The preamp is a tubes4hifi SP13 with their PH12 phono board.
The loudspeaker system is a Linkwitz Orion system with 3-way active crossover. It calls for 8 channels at 60 wpc, which I get from a B&K AV1260.
So anything I do in terms of a turntable should be quite audible.
vinlkid58: It was 29 years ago and I remember the tech installed a Valhalla power supply. I don't know if he replaced the motor or not. Rewiring the RB300 arm is not for the faint of heart. I've seen the articles on how to do it and feel I have the skills.
But the cost of the upgrades you suggest is significant. Isn't the sole sub-chassis a good $400 or so? And the Hercules power supply is another $350 at least isn't it? A good wire kit for the RB300 is going to be another $150 or so. Now we're up to $900.
Am I better off investing $900 (or even more) in a table I can sell for $1100 as is, which is a $2000 total investment, or should I unload it and get into something else? Is there better value elsewhere? I see SOTA and Well-Tempered tables selling for substantially less than $2000. And are they the best value?
I run JRiver on a Linux laptop feeding into a Peachtree USB DAC.
The preamp is a tubes4hifi SP13 with their PH12 phono board.
The loudspeaker system is a Linkwitz Orion system with 3-way active crossover. It calls for 8 channels at 60 wpc, which I get from a B&K AV1260.
So anything I do in terms of a turntable should be quite audible.
vinlkid58: It was 29 years ago and I remember the tech installed a Valhalla power supply. I don't know if he replaced the motor or not. Rewiring the RB300 arm is not for the faint of heart. I've seen the articles on how to do it and feel I have the skills.
But the cost of the upgrades you suggest is significant. Isn't the sole sub-chassis a good $400 or so? And the Hercules power supply is another $350 at least isn't it? A good wire kit for the RB300 is going to be another $150 or so. Now we're up to $900.
Am I better off investing $900 (or even more) in a table I can sell for $1100 as is, which is a $2000 total investment, or should I unload it and get into something else? Is there better value elsewhere? I see SOTA and Well-Tempered tables selling for substantially less than $2000. And are they the best value?
Check the motor pulley diameter. A 50Hz pulley is 27/32" or 21mm dia. The 60Hz pulley is 11/16" or 17mm dia.
You can do it in stages. I'm guessing that you have built the rest of your system in stages, and not all at once?
These are pretty much bargain basement prices. Have you looked at what all the Linn goodies go for?
jeff
vinylkid58;4868562 These are pretty much bargain basement prices. Have you looked at what all the Linn goodies go for? jeff[/QUOTE said:
Interesting dilemma! 😀
You could indeed spend a heap on buying various upgrades to your LP12 - or you could get another TT. What about something entirely different, like a Technics 1200?
The chief fault with your TT, IMO (apart from the terrible pressed-steel subchassis) is that, with the Valhalla, you don't have a 45rpm option. 12" 45s sound so much better than their 33 1/3rd rpm counterparts that this IMO is a great pity. 🙁
So you need a Mose/Hercules - or better still (modern technology) a Phoenix/Falcon motor speed controller. (You aren't prepared to fork out for the best speed controller - the 'Number9' - as this is ~AUD4K.) These will all give you 45 as well as 33.
Now some people like the fact that you can spend heaps on either Linn or after-market upgrades to make an LP12 sound better - so they can improve it, as their finances allow. Others prefer a TT where there really isn't much in the way of upgrades ... you seem to fall into this category? 😕
There is another option - if you choose to accept it ... and have some DIY competence; take some of your Linn bits and construct a copy of my 'SkeletaLinn' - and sell the bits you don't need (plinth, top-plate, subchassis). I did post about the 'SkeletaLinn' on the LP12 Forum a couple of years ago ... hopefully, you'll be able to find it, if you're interested. What I produced then sounded so much better than my tweaked LP12 (with Lingo, custom-made plinth and Graham 2.2 arm) that I broke it apart and sold all the bits. Since then, it has further improved with the addition of the Number9 speed controller ... and then a second motor.
Good luck with the path you choose,
Andy
Isn't the Technics 1200 a direct drive table? The table I had prior to the Linn was a Kenwood KD500, with an Infinity Black Widow tonearm, which at the time was considered one of the better direct drive tables. Not sure I want to go back to direct drive.
I'm not keen to endlessly be tweaking and updating (and spending) on a table. I like to make a solid choice and then let it play. One of the reasons I bought the Linn was that I felt it would hold some value over time. At the time I got it in 1987, I paid out about $1100 total for the table, upgrades, Rega arm & cartridge, dust cover and hinges. I feel confident that today I could get about $1100 for it, though sadly $1100 doesn't go as far as it did in 1987...
Looking around I do see some pretty good values out there in used tables, but I want to take some time to listen and learn before actually making a move.
I had a LP 12 in the early 90's eventually spending about 6 k in upgrades before selling it.
Like andyr said it's the ideal t/t for people that like to constantly improve and tinker ( or clever marketing )
Problem is , or was for me , you never feel satisfied knowing theres an even better part available with ever increased amounts of cash needed before you can sit back happy in the knowledge that you own the
" ultimate " in vinyl reproduction .
My opinion for what its worth , skip the upgrades and jump straight to the Klimax around 17 k ( uk ) 🙂
or on a serious note sell it and take a look at the Clearaudio Concept t/t .
Ok it's only a 1 k deck but it excels in the same areas that the Sondek does , Prat.
On top of this theres nothing much to tweak other than cartridge 's.
If this sounds like a step back then , assuming they are available in the states , try to find a dealer and get a demo . I think you may find just what you are looking for and save a few k as well.
Linn may once have been the Rolls Royce of turntables but high prices and endless options doesn't necessarily mean a better product... Rolls Royce 's breakdown like any other car you just don't see it because the recovery agents are required to cover them with a tarp before transportation . 🙂
Like andyr said it's the ideal t/t for people that like to constantly improve and tinker ( or clever marketing )
Problem is , or was for me , you never feel satisfied knowing theres an even better part available with ever increased amounts of cash needed before you can sit back happy in the knowledge that you own the
" ultimate " in vinyl reproduction .
My opinion for what its worth , skip the upgrades and jump straight to the Klimax around 17 k ( uk ) 🙂
or on a serious note sell it and take a look at the Clearaudio Concept t/t .
Ok it's only a 1 k deck but it excels in the same areas that the Sondek does , Prat.
On top of this theres nothing much to tweak other than cartridge 's.
If this sounds like a step back then , assuming they are available in the states , try to find a dealer and get a demo . I think you may find just what you are looking for and save a few k as well.
Linn may once have been the Rolls Royce of turntables but high prices and endless options doesn't necessarily mean a better product... Rolls Royce 's breakdown like any other car you just don't see it because the recovery agents are required to cover them with a tarp before transportation . 🙂
Hi
I also have a LP12 it has a Vahalla board and I put a Linn Basik Plus arm on it
and a audio technica cartridge. I enjoy it every day, and have been doing for at least
25 years.
My advice would be to only replace parts that have failed. In the case of LP12's
these are few and far between, as they appear to me at least to just keep on going
Just set it up correctly,. Linn Sondek LP12 set up instructions written by ex Linn dealer and reviewer
and enjoy
This tour of Linn might rekindle your faith. Stick with your LP12 ! as not much is better
Linn - Factory Tour, Access All Areas | StereoNET
I also have a LP12 it has a Vahalla board and I put a Linn Basik Plus arm on it
and a audio technica cartridge. I enjoy it every day, and have been doing for at least
25 years.
My advice would be to only replace parts that have failed. In the case of LP12's
these are few and far between, as they appear to me at least to just keep on going
Just set it up correctly,. Linn Sondek LP12 set up instructions written by ex Linn dealer and reviewer
and enjoy
This tour of Linn might rekindle your faith. Stick with your LP12 ! as not much is better
Linn - Factory Tour, Access All Areas | StereoNET
I have an LP12 of the exact same spec. I find having to mess with the belt and pulley to play 45s really annoying, so I would go for the Hercules.
Other than that, what is lacking that makes you want to change?
Other than that, what is lacking that makes you want to change?
Russ -
Since you are scared of a SL-1200 (and honestly, they do need a few mods to turn them into the giant-killers they truly are) I'd suggest you go with your own suggestion of a Well-Tempered.
LP12 are endlessly deep pits into which you throw money. Yes, it's a perfectly wonderful table, but no, as others have suggested, you'll never get it to a point you will be happy with because there's always a "better" mod. (For incredible amounts of money... please see the Keel) You have it in your mind that you need a new table. Go for it!
But under no circumstances sell the Linn before getting the new one. You might like what you already have more. 🙂
Since you are scared of a SL-1200 (and honestly, they do need a few mods to turn them into the giant-killers they truly are) I'd suggest you go with your own suggestion of a Well-Tempered.
LP12 are endlessly deep pits into which you throw money. Yes, it's a perfectly wonderful table, but no, as others have suggested, you'll never get it to a point you will be happy with because there's always a "better" mod. (For incredible amounts of money... please see the Keel) You have it in your mind that you need a new table. Go for it!
But under no circumstances sell the Linn before getting the new one. You might like what you already have more. 🙂
It should be said that legendary Linn Sondek have serious disease - randomly positioned springs without equal mass distribution.
That's not desease, that's personality!
😀 😀 😀
🙂 🙂 🙂
But honestly, the coloration of the Linn are quite pretty. It's what keeps it going after all these years.
😀 😀 😀
🙂 🙂 🙂
But honestly, the coloration of the Linn are quite pretty. It's what keeps it going after all these years.
In response to several posts:
I am considering making a change because my Valhalla power supply is 29 years old and they do not have a reputation for longevity. The table is running just fine now and if I am to sell it, now is the time to do so.
As many have noted, the LP12 is a money pit with regards to upgrades. Everyone will tell you that the original sub-chassis really needs to go, and with my deck having a serial number of 1901, you know this is an early one. Have you seen the price of sub-chassis replacements?! You can buy a decent machine just for what some of those sub-chassis replacements cost! And others suggest power supply, new arm, cartridge... You could easily drop $2000 on a table whose current market value is $1100 and end up with a table whose market value would be $1800.
The cartridge I'm currently running is a Denon DL110.
I think what I need to do next is to take my LP12 over to the local hi-end shop and listen to this rig next to some things in the $1500 price range. Hopefully I can find a local audiophile or two who might also entertain a visit.
So much of what we know about tables is by reputation and what people say. When was the last time you seriously compared your table to another? If I'm going to make this move, I want to be informed before I do. There's always a good deal to be had on the used market if you exercise a little patience AND you know something of what you're looking for. Right now I see a couple of possibilities, but chances are they won't still be there when I'm ready to make my move. But when I am ready, there will be other good values to be had.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...er-mc-ho-2016-10-26-analog-28205-charlotte-nc
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...-turntable-2016-10-14-analog-11101-astoria-ny
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...ackage-2016-10-13-analog-90066-los-angeles-ca
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...ance-se-cmb-2016-10-11-analog-80210-denver-co
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649307595-vpi-hw19-mkiv/
I am considering making a change because my Valhalla power supply is 29 years old and they do not have a reputation for longevity. The table is running just fine now and if I am to sell it, now is the time to do so.
As many have noted, the LP12 is a money pit with regards to upgrades. Everyone will tell you that the original sub-chassis really needs to go, and with my deck having a serial number of 1901, you know this is an early one. Have you seen the price of sub-chassis replacements?! You can buy a decent machine just for what some of those sub-chassis replacements cost! And others suggest power supply, new arm, cartridge... You could easily drop $2000 on a table whose current market value is $1100 and end up with a table whose market value would be $1800.
The cartridge I'm currently running is a Denon DL110.
I think what I need to do next is to take my LP12 over to the local hi-end shop and listen to this rig next to some things in the $1500 price range. Hopefully I can find a local audiophile or two who might also entertain a visit.
So much of what we know about tables is by reputation and what people say. When was the last time you seriously compared your table to another? If I'm going to make this move, I want to be informed before I do. There's always a good deal to be had on the used market if you exercise a little patience AND you know something of what you're looking for. Right now I see a couple of possibilities, but chances are they won't still be there when I'm ready to make my move. But when I am ready, there will be other good values to be had.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...er-mc-ho-2016-10-26-analog-28205-charlotte-nc
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...-turntable-2016-10-14-analog-11101-astoria-ny
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...ackage-2016-10-13-analog-90066-los-angeles-ca
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/t...ance-se-cmb-2016-10-11-analog-80210-denver-co
http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649307595-vpi-hw19-mkiv/
As the Valhalla only gives you 33 1/3rd and no 45, you could ditch it and go back to the original power supply ... which is just a series resistor to reduce the AC mains voltage to around 110v (needs to be at least 20w!) plus a cap to provide a 90 deg phase difference between the blue & the red motor wires.
A mate of mine reckons this gives a better SQ than the Valhalla. 🙂
Andy
I recently met a local audiophile who has a Well Tempered Reference turntable he wants to sell. He brought it over to my house with a Delos cartridge. We listened to it against my old Linn LP12, which has the original motor and sub-chassis, the Nirvana (spring) and Valhalla (power supply) updates, a Rega RB300 arm and a Denon DL110 cartridge. My table/arm/cartridge combo might well be considered to be a "value" package. The Rega arm is a decent arm, but not seen as being hi-end. The Denon cartridge retails for under $200.
This WTT table last retailed for over $5000 and the cartridge sold retail for nearly $2000. If you really want to know how good your gear is, what it can and cannot do, you need to put it up against something that is truly a reference. Stereophile had this table in their "Class A" listing for several years.
Clearly the WTT combo outperformed the LP12, but not by as much as you'd expect for something valued at more than twice what the LP12 would be. On the used market, the WTT combo could be expected to go for somewhere around $3000. This LP12 combo would likely sell at $1100.
We listened to a Victor Feldman recording (vibes, upright string bass and drums). On the LP12, the vibes tended to have a somewhat spitting sound, but not so on the WTT. Wesla Whitfield's voice was just a bit more relaxed and natural on the WTT. String bass was better controlled on the deep end. Piano attacks were also better controlled on the WTT.
So it was a clear winner, but is it worth nearly 3 times the price of the LP12? Can I be happy with the LP12? These are all very interesting questions and I'll have answers after more research.
My wife had some interesting comments. First off she prefers the LP12 mostly because she liked the sound of violins better on it. Being a professional violinist herself, that opinion carries some weight. Listening to the Wesla Whitfield recording, she liked Wesla's voice better on the LP12, but felt that the overall tonal balance was better on the WTT.
Anyone in the San Francisco area is welcome to come visit this week if you'd like to hear something extraordinary. The table is definitely for sale.
This WTT table last retailed for over $5000 and the cartridge sold retail for nearly $2000. If you really want to know how good your gear is, what it can and cannot do, you need to put it up against something that is truly a reference. Stereophile had this table in their "Class A" listing for several years.
Clearly the WTT combo outperformed the LP12, but not by as much as you'd expect for something valued at more than twice what the LP12 would be. On the used market, the WTT combo could be expected to go for somewhere around $3000. This LP12 combo would likely sell at $1100.
We listened to a Victor Feldman recording (vibes, upright string bass and drums). On the LP12, the vibes tended to have a somewhat spitting sound, but not so on the WTT. Wesla Whitfield's voice was just a bit more relaxed and natural on the WTT. String bass was better controlled on the deep end. Piano attacks were also better controlled on the WTT.
So it was a clear winner, but is it worth nearly 3 times the price of the LP12? Can I be happy with the LP12? These are all very interesting questions and I'll have answers after more research.
My wife had some interesting comments. First off she prefers the LP12 mostly because she liked the sound of violins better on it. Being a professional violinist herself, that opinion carries some weight. Listening to the Wesla Whitfield recording, she liked Wesla's voice better on the LP12, but felt that the overall tonal balance was better on the WTT.
Anyone in the San Francisco area is welcome to come visit this week if you'd like to hear something extraordinary. The table is definitely for sale.
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