I have a Technics SL-1210M5G and considering buying a low output moving coil. I want to pay around 300$ maximum. So my main choices are:
Audio-Technica OC9 at 289$
Denon 103 à 229$
New Orthofon Salsa or Samba at 225/275$
And I sometimes see some low hours Benz ACE around 300$
Right now, the OC9 seems like the good choice, but does anyone has any opinions and experience with those carts.
Thanks
Audio-Technica OC9 at 289$
Denon 103 à 229$
New Orthofon Salsa or Samba at 225/275$
And I sometimes see some low hours Benz ACE around 300$
Right now, the OC9 seems like the good choice, but does anyone has any opinions and experience with those carts.
Thanks
The 103 is the obvious choice in my book. But you need a high-mass arm for that.
Matching the cart with the tonearm is more important than the cart and tonearms by themselves. I would think you need a high-compliant cart, equal to that of a MM cart.
Matching the cart with the tonearm is more important than the cart and tonearms by themselves. I would think you need a high-compliant cart, equal to that of a MM cart.
My arm effective mass is 12. BUT, the headshell has an extra screw-on weight of 4g. So I guess that if I put it on, the arm is now 16 g mass which I believe is high mass. it seems like I could use the Denon
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The denon is definatly the best of that specific grouping.
If you can stretch your budget a little more, the new cheapest model from ZYX, which I just picked up, is far better sounding than the denon. I believe i paid like 450-500ish something like that. I know thats more than you want to spend, but it was a sizable improvement. If not, save your money and buy the Denon. Look on ebay, you might be able to find some better prices on the standerd version, which I always thought a lot like the R version. I don't know that I agree the R is a worthwhile upgrade, like some people feel.
If you can stretch your budget a little more, the new cheapest model from ZYX, which I just picked up, is far better sounding than the denon. I believe i paid like 450-500ish something like that. I know thats more than you want to spend, but it was a sizable improvement. If not, save your money and buy the Denon. Look on ebay, you might be able to find some better prices on the standerd version, which I always thought a lot like the R version. I don't know that I agree the R is a worthwhile upgrade, like some people feel.
High-mass is in the 20+ range. Ortofon arms are around 35g, which used to be low-mass. The Neumann Z 25 is twice that.
People who use the 103 with the SME 3012 usually add a heavier counter-weight and headshell. That's no lightweight arm by today's standard.
There are people who insist the 103 smokes carts priced in the thousands,.
From the Vinyl Engine forum:
Poster 1: Garrard 301/Neil Hollow plinth --> Ikeda IT-407 --> Denon 103 --> Auditorium 23 step-up transformer --> Shindo Monbrison --> Leak Stereo 20 --> Quad ESL 57
Poster 2: with your very high class kit, why are you using a Denon cartridge?
for only a bit more, you can have a much better one and much better sound!
try a Dynavector, or Shelter, or Benz Micro......
there are so many cartridges better suited to your equipment, and give the dynamics of what you now have, but with much more detail, realism, and a bigger soundstage.
Poster 1: Simple answer... I've tried all of the above, and the 103R blows them all away. More specifically I've owned Shelter 501 and 901, Dyna 10x4 and Benz L2... in every important way the Denon is far more musical to me.
Having that said, I stand by my first post.
People who use the 103 with the SME 3012 usually add a heavier counter-weight and headshell. That's no lightweight arm by today's standard.
There are people who insist the 103 smokes carts priced in the thousands,.
From the Vinyl Engine forum:
Poster 1: Garrard 301/Neil Hollow plinth --> Ikeda IT-407 --> Denon 103 --> Auditorium 23 step-up transformer --> Shindo Monbrison --> Leak Stereo 20 --> Quad ESL 57
Poster 2: with your very high class kit, why are you using a Denon cartridge?
for only a bit more, you can have a much better one and much better sound!
try a Dynavector, or Shelter, or Benz Micro......
there are so many cartridges better suited to your equipment, and give the dynamics of what you now have, but with much more detail, realism, and a bigger soundstage.
Poster 1: Simple answer... I've tried all of the above, and the 103R blows them all away. More specifically I've owned Shelter 501 and 901, Dyna 10x4 and Benz L2... in every important way the Denon is far more musical to me.
Having that said, I stand by my first post.
Well, I checked, and there is also a auxilliary screw on weight that you can put at the rear of the tonearm, near the counterweight that will also increase the tonearm mass. Plus other weights that I can put between the cart and the headshell. Anyway, I can always try and see if this does any audible difference. This tonearm is really polyvalent.
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You should buy what you want. But I don't think you should get hung up on a component. Synergy is the thing.
Here in Europe many high-price carts are modified EMTs and Denons. Van den Hul is the most famous example. But those carts are usually high-compliant versions made for modern tonearms.
Try http://www.needledoctor.com
Here in Europe many high-price carts are modified EMTs and Denons. Van den Hul is the most famous example. But those carts are usually high-compliant versions made for modern tonearms.
Try http://www.needledoctor.com
i have both, the benz ace and at oc9
they are both equaly good, might prefer oc9 for slightly sweeter sound
they are both equaly good, might prefer oc9 for slightly sweeter sound
OC9,too compliant for the technics
DL103,has a spherical tip not enough anymore for a cartridge at this price imo,and very flimsy body
salsa/samba,too plasticky for this price,even less
Ace,I did not check one
DV20XL,aluminium body,micro ridge stylus tip,excellent matching for the technics.Compared to the above,it could cost up to 50% more than any of them and still be good value.Consider the excellent sound as an extra bonus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DL103,has a spherical tip not enough anymore for a cartridge at this price imo,and very flimsy body
salsa/samba,too plasticky for this price,even less
Ace,I did not check one
DV20XL,aluminium body,micro ridge stylus tip,excellent matching for the technics.Compared to the above,it could cost up to 50% more than any of them and still be good value.Consider the excellent sound as an extra bonus!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OC9
The OC9 does not seems too compliant for the Technics arm. The 9 mm/N compliance with the 12 g gives a resonant frequency in the 12 Hz range which I think should be fine.
The OC9 does not seems too compliant for the Technics arm. The 9 mm/N compliance with the 12 g gives a resonant frequency in the 12 Hz range which I think should be fine.
I thought the oc9 had higher compliance,but is the total effective mass 12gr?The oc9 is around 8gr,the technics headshell only is 7,add the screws and arm tube mass,it should be more.
I just went from an OC9 mkII to a Lyra Argo i. The difference in sound makes me wonder why I spent the extra money. Would have been happy with the OC9. Playing reference 45rpm and 180gr vinyl on a Basis1400, RB900 arm, through 300B's and homemade hi efficiency KlipschHeil speakers.
Thanks for the information.
Well, I just saw a good deal on a Denon DL-103 and many people seems vary happy with their Dl-103 on a technics so I decided to give it a try. I will post results later. The OC9 seems much more "high tech" with better stylus and cantilever, but I got the Denon for 165$ sealed so the price was good.
I will try it with the stock tonearm, and with added mass to see if there is an audible difference.
F
Well, I just saw a good deal on a Denon DL-103 and many people seems vary happy with their Dl-103 on a technics so I decided to give it a try. I will post results later. The OC9 seems much more "high tech" with better stylus and cantilever, but I got the Denon for 165$ sealed so the price was good.
I will try it with the stock tonearm, and with added mass to see if there is an audible difference.
F
Denon DL-103 first impressions
Hi everyone
I installed my Dl-103 a few days ago, and I've not yet gave a good critical listen, but i'm happy from what I hear at this point. Maybe only 10-12 hours of play yet.
First, I've tried it with 4g additional weight on the headshell, and also without the additional weight. I did not notice much differences in the sound with or without the weight. (not enough that I can tell that one is better at this point)
But, I have a vinyl which has a strong bump on the first outer track. With the additional weight, the needle jumps a lot after this bump and skip track. Without the weight, the tracking is fine and the bump is really not very apparent soundwise. I had similar results with a Dl-110. So my conclusion is that adding weight to the tonearm does not help to track wrapped records. Maybe there is too much angular inertia in that case.
On the sound, i find that this cart gives really good results with the vocals. I noticed quite quickly that the vocals are really naturals. Violins and classical music in general sounded very good also. Bass is fine, I really not gave it enough listen at that point to have better comments. Maybe later this week. Overall, I think it is an improvement over my DL-110.
I tried with 120 hm loading, and 2.5 to 2.8 tracking force. I have tried other loadings (I have a rotary switch with 20, 50, 120, 340, 1000 and 47K ohm loads). There is not huge differences between loadings. The lower values reduces the gain. 47k is not very good. 50 to 340 was OK.
Other comment:
-I find the appearance of the cart really better than what i thought it would be.
-The stylus can really get a lot of gunk out of my older records.
F
Hi everyone
I installed my Dl-103 a few days ago, and I've not yet gave a good critical listen, but i'm happy from what I hear at this point. Maybe only 10-12 hours of play yet.
First, I've tried it with 4g additional weight on the headshell, and also without the additional weight. I did not notice much differences in the sound with or without the weight. (not enough that I can tell that one is better at this point)
But, I have a vinyl which has a strong bump on the first outer track. With the additional weight, the needle jumps a lot after this bump and skip track. Without the weight, the tracking is fine and the bump is really not very apparent soundwise. I had similar results with a Dl-110. So my conclusion is that adding weight to the tonearm does not help to track wrapped records. Maybe there is too much angular inertia in that case.
On the sound, i find that this cart gives really good results with the vocals. I noticed quite quickly that the vocals are really naturals. Violins and classical music in general sounded very good also. Bass is fine, I really not gave it enough listen at that point to have better comments. Maybe later this week. Overall, I think it is an improvement over my DL-110.
I tried with 120 hm loading, and 2.5 to 2.8 tracking force. I have tried other loadings (I have a rotary switch with 20, 50, 120, 340, 1000 and 47K ohm loads). There is not huge differences between loadings. The lower values reduces the gain. 47k is not very good. 50 to 340 was OK.
Other comment:
-I find the appearance of the cart really better than what i thought it would be.
-The stylus can really get a lot of gunk out of my older records.
F
Hello,
When you add the extra weight to the back of the tonearm (I am assuming here that it screws into the centre of the counterweight), do you re-balance the arm, set the weight dial to 0 while holding the counterweight still and reset the tracking weight.
Sorry if you already know about this, but it is the only thing that I can think of at the moment.
If not, then the reason for the skipping would seem to be low tracking force. IIRC, the extra weight is to let the arm balance heavier cartridges than it otherwise could.
james
When you add the extra weight to the back of the tonearm (I am assuming here that it screws into the centre of the counterweight), do you re-balance the arm, set the weight dial to 0 while holding the counterweight still and reset the tracking weight.
Sorry if you already know about this, but it is the only thing that I can think of at the moment.
If not, then the reason for the skipping would seem to be low tracking force. IIRC, the extra weight is to let the arm balance heavier cartridges than it otherwise could.
james
Yes, I did re-balance the arm for each configuration. Still, it is normal that a heavier arm is slower to move for the same tracking force. After the bump, the arm must come down quite quickly. For the same 2.5 g downward force, If the arm weight 16 to 20 grams, this will be slower than if the arm weights 12 grams.
Don't forget that this bump is quite nasty and I use it only to check how the arm performs in extreme situations.
F
Don't forget that this bump is quite nasty and I use it only to check how the arm performs in extreme situations.
F
just as you said it.Not a matter of cartridge tracking,but more how the arm behaves with the extra weight.Happy listening.
Listening...
I did some more listening yesterday. I did a quick comparison with a DL-110. I've listened to Elvis Costello & Allen Toussaint album: "the river in reverse" Great album, great sound.
Although there is not huge differences between the two cartridges, with the DL-103, it felt more like I was in the recording room, and I was able to better hear the fine details of the recording, like recording room reverberation. Voice was better.
There is also a lot of brass in that album, and the brass had more impact, and clarity. Trumpet punches were more upfront and "punchy".
Bass was maybe slightly better with the Dl-103, as if my room was now more damped. It felt like there was more control over the bass.
Again, the differences were not night and day, and the DL-110 is a good cart, but I felt like the DL-103 was slightly better, and a good purchase. Makes me want to listen more.
I finished with Tortoise's "Millions now living will never die". I really like how the sound of that album can wrap around you. I always feel like I'm being plunged into the deep parts of the ocean when listening to this album. As if the speakers were pouring the very low bass and keyboard tones until the room is full of sound. Great listen.
F
I did some more listening yesterday. I did a quick comparison with a DL-110. I've listened to Elvis Costello & Allen Toussaint album: "the river in reverse" Great album, great sound.
Although there is not huge differences between the two cartridges, with the DL-103, it felt more like I was in the recording room, and I was able to better hear the fine details of the recording, like recording room reverberation. Voice was better.
There is also a lot of brass in that album, and the brass had more impact, and clarity. Trumpet punches were more upfront and "punchy".
Bass was maybe slightly better with the Dl-103, as if my room was now more damped. It felt like there was more control over the bass.
Again, the differences were not night and day, and the DL-110 is a good cart, but I felt like the DL-103 was slightly better, and a good purchase. Makes me want to listen more.
I finished with Tortoise's "Millions now living will never die". I really like how the sound of that album can wrap around you. I always feel like I'm being plunged into the deep parts of the ocean when listening to this album. As if the speakers were pouring the very low bass and keyboard tones until the room is full of sound. Great listen.
F
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