Hi,
I'm waiting for Aspen amps to release the glass harmony SE amp (won't be for a while yet). The amp will be used in a small room (my bedroom), so typically won't be played too loud. The sound I want for this is really 'syrupy', to coin a phrase.
I havn't purchased a tube amp before, so I'm new to it all.
Is there a generalised sound to SE, PP or OTL amps?
I think the Aspen amp will be good as Hugh Dean knows what he's talking about. I already have a really good ss amp in my main room. But was looking for something really relaxing for my bedroom where the warm euphric sound will be welcome.
Thanks
Raja
I'm waiting for Aspen amps to release the glass harmony SE amp (won't be for a while yet). The amp will be used in a small room (my bedroom), so typically won't be played too loud. The sound I want for this is really 'syrupy', to coin a phrase.
I havn't purchased a tube amp before, so I'm new to it all.
Is there a generalised sound to SE, PP or OTL amps?
I think the Aspen amp will be good as Hugh Dean knows what he's talking about. I already have a really good ss amp in my main room. But was looking for something really relaxing for my bedroom where the warm euphric sound will be welcome.
Thanks
Raja
Raj1 said:
If there is, I would hope to god it isn't "syrupy". 🙁
I think most people with experience in audio find that tubes are capable of delivering a clean transparent sound that complex, high feedback SS amps are not.
Yet again, I have to wonder, why you would want your system to "sound" like anything??? Why don't you just buy an EQ if you want a "warm" sound?
Hi Raj,
Been busy with tubes now for 2 years or something..The closest I got to what you describe is a 6AS7 tube. So my guess would be to get something based around a 2A3. Don't expect to much though. Modern caps, and decent iron (transformers) give very clear sound without sounding "grainy" ...that's about as close as youre going to get to syrupy.
I am actually suprised at how little "sound" a tube has...I probably has less of a signature than a transistor or mosfet. Guess that syrupy sound was caused by certain paper in oil coupling caps.
The warm sound is created by the 2nd harmonic distortion a tube has more than a transistor (or emphasizes more)...(Not saying that tubes have more distortion) a 300b has vanishingly low levels of distortion as Lynn Olson puts it. SE amps also have more of it than PP.
So to conclude I guess you would have to look for a 2A3 SET transformer coupled...(between the driver and 2A3) to give a nice harmonic ("warm") sound. (An interstage preserves the harmonic structure of a tube the best)
Cheers,
Bas
Hi,
Personally, I don't think any valve / tube has a sound signature (unless microphonic / faulty of course).
The differences we percieve are due to tha way the valve interacts with the circuit it is runnning in. Differences in sound between 2 valves of the same type, but different brand can be attributed to characteristic variations. If the valves are within spec, then a circuit that shows a big difference in sound between these could be considered to be a poor design. Why should the variations be circuit dependent if this is not the case?
It is my view that Iron (and it's interaction with the valves' slight characteristic variations) will make the biggest sound signature. - Enter the OTL lobby😉
Is there a valve sound? Yes and no. The difference in results between the best examples of both traditions is small.
Well that's probably upset a few people
Cheers,
Personally, I don't think any valve / tube has a sound signature (unless microphonic / faulty of course).
The differences we percieve are due to tha way the valve interacts with the circuit it is runnning in. Differences in sound between 2 valves of the same type, but different brand can be attributed to characteristic variations. If the valves are within spec, then a circuit that shows a big difference in sound between these could be considered to be a poor design. Why should the variations be circuit dependent if this is not the case?
It is my view that Iron (and it's interaction with the valves' slight characteristic variations) will make the biggest sound signature. - Enter the OTL lobby😉
Is there a valve sound? Yes and no. The difference in results between the best examples of both traditions is small.
Well that's probably upset a few people
Cheers,
Sure has a signature John, but in a good way
It gives 3rd harmonics a kick in the teeth
http://www.aloha-audio.com/library/FindingCG.html
Yup, I got a lesson in that when my tube stage in CD player sounded pretty much the same as a lowly op-amp...or did you mean between OTL and valve.
Cheers,
Bas
syrupy sound
Hi,
Ok I didn't mean to stereotype all tube designs with my previous question.
So I'l try to find the words and provide some more info.
I recently purchased a copy of miles davis kind of blue, which was re-mastered on tube gear. Ok now what do I mean by syrupy?, well the high's have a certain ring on this cd, smooth but still detailed and extended.
The brass has a nice overtone which is really pleasing to my ears.
I already have a good SS amp to deliver 'realism' I want. This is for my bedroom and I thought it would be nice to have an amp that could kinda do this sound permanentley. I'm open minded here, and I don't want to get into or cause a tube vs SS argument. Like Bas said it's the second harmonic that creates the stereotyped tubey sound. One would assume that SE amps, are probably closer to what I'm looking for. I don't mind distortion if it's of the type which produces the 'overtones', which are so pleasing to the ear. I'm sure there are tube amps out there with low distortion, but I'm looking for 'musicality', not in the sense of outright realism (MY SS amp already does that), I guess it's hard to explain, I guess Bas interpreted what I was trying to ask the best. My sincere apologies if I came accross as implying that all tube amps are not accurate in terms of accurate reproduction of a sound. I'm not after strictly accurate reproduction this time, and I don't think I need an equaliser, i've not heard one yet that can, I'm sure there are some tube designs that fit the bill, just looking for some more info to clarify matters. What makes questions like mine difficult is all the set minded people who can't see past a certain type of musical reproduction. I just find the sound of the re mastered cd very pleasing, and would like a tube amp capable of doing this with virtually everything I play on it, if of course such a beast exists.
Thank you guys
sorry once again for posing a somewhat silly question
Thanks
Raja
Hi,
Ok I didn't mean to stereotype all tube designs with my previous question.
So I'l try to find the words and provide some more info.
I recently purchased a copy of miles davis kind of blue, which was re-mastered on tube gear. Ok now what do I mean by syrupy?, well the high's have a certain ring on this cd, smooth but still detailed and extended.
The brass has a nice overtone which is really pleasing to my ears.
I already have a good SS amp to deliver 'realism' I want. This is for my bedroom and I thought it would be nice to have an amp that could kinda do this sound permanentley. I'm open minded here, and I don't want to get into or cause a tube vs SS argument. Like Bas said it's the second harmonic that creates the stereotyped tubey sound. One would assume that SE amps, are probably closer to what I'm looking for. I don't mind distortion if it's of the type which produces the 'overtones', which are so pleasing to the ear. I'm sure there are tube amps out there with low distortion, but I'm looking for 'musicality', not in the sense of outright realism (MY SS amp already does that), I guess it's hard to explain, I guess Bas interpreted what I was trying to ask the best. My sincere apologies if I came accross as implying that all tube amps are not accurate in terms of accurate reproduction of a sound. I'm not after strictly accurate reproduction this time, and I don't think I need an equaliser, i've not heard one yet that can, I'm sure there are some tube designs that fit the bill, just looking for some more info to clarify matters. What makes questions like mine difficult is all the set minded people who can't see past a certain type of musical reproduction. I just find the sound of the re mastered cd very pleasing, and would like a tube amp capable of doing this with virtually everything I play on it, if of course such a beast exists.
Thank you guys
sorry once again for posing a somewhat silly question
Thanks
Raja
Raja,
Best thing would be to audition a couple of tube amps with the speakers you intend.
Cheers,
Bas
PS...aint such a thing as a stupid question...there is such a thing as a stupid answer though..
Best thing would be to audition a couple of tube amps with the speakers you intend.
Cheers,
Bas
PS...aint such a thing as a stupid question...there is such a thing as a stupid answer though..
Bas,
http://www.aloha-audio.com/library/FindingCG.html
You're brilliant!
I've been looking for that article for ages. In fact last year there was a post on the forum asking for it's URL. I knew from the description exactly which article he meant, but I'd lost it too!
Oh, BTW, I meant Valve vs. SS...
The jury's out on OTL. No doubt I'll get my hand smacked by Frank🙄
Cheers,
http://www.aloha-audio.com/library/FindingCG.html
You're brilliant!
I've been looking for that article for ages. In fact last year there was a post on the forum asking for it's URL. I knew from the description exactly which article he meant, but I'd lost it too!
Oh, BTW, I meant Valve vs. SS...
The jury's out on OTL. No doubt I'll get my hand smacked by Frank🙄
Cheers,
Hi,
No shortage of those.🙄
Cheers,
P.S. I'll chip in later...watching a fascinatong movie right now, sorry.😉
No shortage of those.🙄
Cheers,
P.S. I'll chip in later...watching a fascinatong movie right now, sorry.😉
Bas Horneman said:
Frank,
You know that you can just watch a porn video later right?
Do you?
Cheers,
Bas
He he😉 Bas, you have told him where to get it. That's against the rules😉
Raja,
There has been some discussion on the Forum as to whether certain valve circuits can "round off" sounds from certain (digital) sources.
I can't give you a definitive answer, but have a look back at some recent threads, and try to draw your own conclusion.
Bas's idea is good: actually try some. But I would say you should also use your own CD player with known media.
Cheers,
I'D BETTER NOT WATCHED THAT MOVIE...
Hi,
Re: the 6AS7GA, your description summs up my experience with really old and overused pull outs.
A 6080 or related equivalent sounds fast, clear and mostly transparent.
From my experience, a good 2A3 can beat any 300B on clean sound thanks to its low heater voltage.
So, that one is out of the window for syrupy sound too...
Mind you, if it's colouration you're after I can design for it as I'm sure others can too... but why would anyone want that?
If any need for stereotyping is called for: (and keep in mind these are only gross generalisations)
Just some short descriptions:
SE: favours even harmonics, hardly a damping factor worth mentioning, desperately inefficient...
On the plus side: simple and thanks to its harmonic distortion spectrum it seems to mate well with those suffering from digititis.
PP: much better PSRR, balanced output stage so even order harmonic distortion cancels out, much better bass performance than SE thanks to a better DF so its much better at handling back EMF.
OTL: the ultimate amp, not very efficient but an open window to the recording provided you go the PP way, in SE it can sound good...damm, I hate to say it but it can even make for a good sounding amp when the output is cap coupled . Imagine a big electrolyte there?
With OTLS, as with most other poweramps, the better the PSU, the better the amp is going to sound.
Let me put it this way, I never heard an OTL owner complain about a lack of transparency.
To round up:
Yes, tubes/valves do have a sonic signature that varies from type to type and manufacturer to manucturer and so does any other component you're going to use.
And yes, syrupy sound can be had from tubes...and from semis too.
Cheers,😉
P.S. For all you sex craved SOBs, I was watching "Seven years in Tibet".
I'm a sucker for all things philosophical, do you mind?🙂
Hi,
Re: the 6AS7GA, your description summs up my experience with really old and overused pull outs.
A 6080 or related equivalent sounds fast, clear and mostly transparent.
From my experience, a good 2A3 can beat any 300B on clean sound thanks to its low heater voltage.
So, that one is out of the window for syrupy sound too...
Mind you, if it's colouration you're after I can design for it as I'm sure others can too... but why would anyone want that?
If any need for stereotyping is called for: (and keep in mind these are only gross generalisations)
Just some short descriptions:
SE: favours even harmonics, hardly a damping factor worth mentioning, desperately inefficient...
On the plus side: simple and thanks to its harmonic distortion spectrum it seems to mate well with those suffering from digititis.
PP: much better PSRR, balanced output stage so even order harmonic distortion cancels out, much better bass performance than SE thanks to a better DF so its much better at handling back EMF.
OTL: the ultimate amp, not very efficient but an open window to the recording provided you go the PP way, in SE it can sound good...damm, I hate to say it but it can even make for a good sounding amp when the output is cap coupled . Imagine a big electrolyte there?
With OTLS, as with most other poweramps, the better the PSU, the better the amp is going to sound.
Let me put it this way, I never heard an OTL owner complain about a lack of transparency.
To round up:
Yes, tubes/valves do have a sonic signature that varies from type to type and manufacturer to manucturer and so does any other component you're going to use.
And yes, syrupy sound can be had from tubes...and from semis too.
Cheers,😉
P.S. For all you sex craved SOBs, I was watching "Seven years in Tibet".
I'm a sucker for all things philosophical, do you mind?🙂
Raj1 wrote: "I already have a good SS amp to deliver 'realism' I want." 
Perhaps you should audition a good tube design in your main system... and then relegate your SS amp to your bedroom.
Perhaps you should audition a good tube design in your main system... and then relegate your SS amp to your bedroom.
RE: "realism"
Raj,
You will find, if and when you build or buy a well-designed tube system, that the SS was not "realistic" in any way. The increased enjoyment you may or may not feel when you listen to your new tube amp will be due to you finally hearing the music.
Raj,
You will find, if and when you build or buy a well-designed tube system, that the SS was not "realistic" in any way. The increased enjoyment you may or may not feel when you listen to your new tube amp will be due to you finally hearing the music.
My SS
Hi,
I can't see my SS amp getting replaced, it's so clean and smooth, it's a diy kit amp using the finest components and really does sound nice, which begs the question, if it sounds so good why not get another one?
Well I'm curious about tubes, and also open minded, why not have one of each?
FYI my main room is also the main room for other people in the house, so it's not always possible to listen there.
It was the miles davis re-pro that sorta got me into doing this, anyone of you guys heard it? Perhaps you'll then get an idea of what I mean.
Trouble is there's almost animosity between SS fans and tube fans, each thinking the respective sound is better and also the overall ability of the other device is flawed.
You guys must understand I'm not knocking tubes by asking for a certain sound, it's hard to convey feeling by speech. I don't want to get mathematical about this, we'll leave that to the designers.
I think where I went wrong here (if I am), is reading quite a few reviews, in which I've often read references saying that most tube amps do have a warmer, smoother and more palapable sound. Perhaps I made the classic mistake of believing reviews.
So by getting a decent tube amp, and also having a very good SS, I'll sorta have the best of both worlds.
Hey you guys may be right perhaps I will prefer it to my SS, we'll wait and see.....
Thanks for your time
Raja
Hi,
I can't see my SS amp getting replaced, it's so clean and smooth, it's a diy kit amp using the finest components and really does sound nice, which begs the question, if it sounds so good why not get another one?
Well I'm curious about tubes, and also open minded, why not have one of each?
FYI my main room is also the main room for other people in the house, so it's not always possible to listen there.
It was the miles davis re-pro that sorta got me into doing this, anyone of you guys heard it? Perhaps you'll then get an idea of what I mean.
Trouble is there's almost animosity between SS fans and tube fans, each thinking the respective sound is better and also the overall ability of the other device is flawed.
You guys must understand I'm not knocking tubes by asking for a certain sound, it's hard to convey feeling by speech. I don't want to get mathematical about this, we'll leave that to the designers.
I think where I went wrong here (if I am), is reading quite a few reviews, in which I've often read references saying that most tube amps do have a warmer, smoother and more palapable sound. Perhaps I made the classic mistake of believing reviews.
So by getting a decent tube amp, and also having a very good SS, I'll sorta have the best of both worlds.
Hey you guys may be right perhaps I will prefer it to my SS, we'll wait and see.....
Thanks for your time
Raja
Re: RE: "realism"
I think two cans of worms have been opened here. I have access to a number of sound systems:
A very nearly top-notch cinema system. (Very loud, equally clean when loud, but never perfectly clean.)
A top-quality broadcast editing system. (Revealing of poor microphone placement etc, but not necessarily what you would listen to for pleasure.)
Home system No1: Wide-range, broadcast balance.
Home system No2: LS3/5a. (That says it all.)
The home systems are clean and analytical (they have to be, because I know what it ought to sound like). They use valves.
I'm sure it's possible to make a transistor amplifier that is as clean as a valve amplifier, it's just that I've never heard one.
Joel said:
I think two cans of worms have been opened here. I have access to a number of sound systems:
A very nearly top-notch cinema system. (Very loud, equally clean when loud, but never perfectly clean.)
A top-quality broadcast editing system. (Revealing of poor microphone placement etc, but not necessarily what you would listen to for pleasure.)
Home system No1: Wide-range, broadcast balance.
Home system No2: LS3/5a. (That says it all.)
The home systems are clean and analytical (they have to be, because I know what it ought to sound like). They use valves.
I'm sure it's possible to make a transistor amplifier that is as clean as a valve amplifier, it's just that I've never heard one.
LOL.
Hi,
Some people try for their entire life to mimmick a good valve amp with semi-conductors...
Lately, I mean for the past five years I've heard some that came close on some aspects only to fall short on all the others.
'T ain't easy...😉
Hi,
Some people try for their entire life to mimmick a good valve amp with semi-conductors...
Lately, I mean for the past five years I've heard some that came close on some aspects only to fall short on all the others.
'T ain't easy...😉
sound of ss
Hi Guys,
Actually you're right here, I think that there have been so many poorly designed SS amps and this has given the semi's a bad name. With my amp I found that the more the quiescent current was increased the more 'musical' the sound became, greater transparancy, smoother highs etc. To be honest it's the best treble I've ever heard on an amplifier.
Now what's the general state of the diy tube market?
Are there any really good kit amps, that rival the really so-called highend commercial offerings, if so which companies?
For me absoulute accuracy isn't a must, but at the same time I don't want the system to be devoid of dynamics or overly rolled off in the highs.
Thanks
Raj
Hi Guys,
Actually you're right here, I think that there have been so many poorly designed SS amps and this has given the semi's a bad name. With my amp I found that the more the quiescent current was increased the more 'musical' the sound became, greater transparancy, smoother highs etc. To be honest it's the best treble I've ever heard on an amplifier.
Now what's the general state of the diy tube market?
Are there any really good kit amps, that rival the really so-called highend commercial offerings, if so which companies?
For me absoulute accuracy isn't a must, but at the same time I don't want the system to be devoid of dynamics or overly rolled off in the highs.
Thanks
Raj
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