I was looking at the Seas A26 kit and was intrigued by its "naked" use of the 10" woofer. I seem to recall that Reference 3A favored the same methodology -- i.e., running a woofer "naked" without a crossover while using a tweeter to fill the top.
My question is whether there is a similar, two-way design using a 10" or 12" woofer for cabinets (sealed or vented) that are much larger, say 85L or 3 cubic feet. The goal here is to hopefully obtain the same level of midrange purity while also getting a bit more bass.
Thanks!
My question is whether there is a similar, two-way design using a 10" or 12" woofer for cabinets (sealed or vented) that are much larger, say 85L or 3 cubic feet. The goal here is to hopefully obtain the same level of midrange purity while also getting a bit more bass.
Thanks!
What are you seeing in the upper rollof of the woofer without filters? If it's worthwhile it may be able to be reproduced.
My KLH 23 speakers were 10" woofer + 3" tweeter. The tweeter was blocked by several capacitors, with a switch for selection. Cost an entire $99 each in 1978 from Woolco.
Still performing on as organ speakers on an Allen 300 at my church. I tried a Peavey 1210 previously, which had two 10" drivers and 3 piezo tweeters. The ruling elder complained of too much bass, and his wife wasn't even pushing the pedals on the organ. So he is quite happy with the low bass KLH23's. Cases are about 26"x14"x14". No stuffing.
Still performing on as organ speakers on an Allen 300 at my church. I tried a Peavey 1210 previously, which had two 10" drivers and 3 piezo tweeters. The ruling elder complained of too much bass, and his wife wasn't even pushing the pedals on the organ. So he is quite happy with the low bass KLH23's. Cases are about 26"x14"x14". No stuffing.
The A26RE4(H1411) will be very happy sealed in 85 liters.
Sim it and see. The Qt is high enough to make it work well.
It only needs the damped port when squeezed into the Dynaco 25-like cabinet.
Sim it and see. The Qt is high enough to make it work well.
It only needs the damped port when squeezed into the Dynaco 25-like cabinet.
I came from crossover-less, full-range speakers. I prefer to have a more “direct line" between the amp and driver(s). Someone once said that you can have two Steinways with close serial numbers, but there is no way you can match the lower range of one to the upper range of the other. So to the extent possible I prefer to have one driver doing most of the range.
I think the key here is looking for a woofer that breaks up gently without any nasties... You can do that with full range speakers because they are designed to break up. But with dedicated midbass you need to be a lot more careful.
Some break up like crazy, some don't.
Oon
Some break up like crazy, some don't.
Oon
Have you by chance heard the A26 or the same setup in larger cabinets? At what level do they perform/compare to? Asking because the reviews seem generally positive but somewhat diverging (e.g., some stating that Eminence B102 could perform better), and here I certainly would like to have more opinions before I make a major investment. I do like the concept of running the woofer naked, and was previously impressed by Reference 3A's implementation using a smaller woofer. I have not heard any Dynaco A25 though.
Regarding oon's comments.. Yes, for sure.
With regards to the direct line, I think it's possible to overextend, and make mistakes when doing a crossover.. but it isn't necessarily the crossover itself that is the issue. (Also remember that woofers don't always behave well on their own.)
Some people that are cautious will stick with low orders of filter. There is less that can be made worse, but less that can be improved. First order seems to have a greater chance of success in the low to mid hundreds of Hz, as is popular with the full-range crowd.
With regards to the direct line, I think it's possible to overextend, and make mistakes when doing a crossover.. but it isn't necessarily the crossover itself that is the issue. (Also remember that woofers don't always behave well on their own.)
Some people that are cautious will stick with low orders of filter. There is less that can be made worse, but less that can be improved. First order seems to have a greater chance of success in the low to mid hundreds of Hz, as is popular with the full-range crowd.
I only heard this driver used as a midrange in a big system. It does make for a very clean midrange. 
Yes, in 78l, and 108l.
You do need a tweeter/"fullrange" that can survive a gentle crossover slope, by sharing range(and staying in phase) the hand-off is better, dispersion-wise.
You do need a tweeter/"fullrange" that can survive a gentle crossover slope, by sharing range(and staying in phase) the hand-off is better, dispersion-wise.
I ran eminence b102 (wide open) with single capped morel cat378.
Worked well after sliding tweet back maybe 2".
2.5ft3 ported ideally i think, tuning = fs = f3 = 45hz.
Worked well after sliding tweet back maybe 2".
2.5ft3 ported ideally i think, tuning = fs = f3 = 45hz.
Here's a nice 2-Way design with a 10" woofer:
Big Yellow Taxi MK2 – Donhighend Audio
It goes down to round 30Hz (-3dB) and sounds amazing.
Big Yellow Taxi MK2 – Donhighend Audio
It goes down to round 30Hz (-3dB) and sounds amazing.
I tend to like larger 2-ways like this. 8" 2-ways seemed to be a popular design in the late 80s and early 90s, and I've got a few sets from that era. I have a set of PSBs, a set of Paradigms, and a set of Mission 707s. Because the woofers start to beam before they're crossed to the mids, even with a flat on-axis response, you get beaming, so the midrange seems to be relaxed... but still there. I think that creates a smooth, easy to listen to sound, if not the most detailed one could imagine. My Paradigms and PSBs both have that relaxed midrange sound. I haven't listened to the 707s in a while, but I recall them having more presence in the midrange, but still a very smooth, pleasing sound. I was always very impressed with how those speakers sounded.
All of those speakers use a poly woofer, and I think that is a critical part of the design working. My guess is that those poly woofers have a smooth top end with no significant breakup. Not only does this allow for a simplified crossover (I don't think they play full range), but it avoids the brittle sound that you'd get with a woofer that has breakup. A lot of the larger PA drivers have a breakup range that is going to significantly color the sound, especially if you want the woofer to play full range. I looked at a few on Parts Express and they all seem to have a breakup node that's going to be quite audible.
All of those speakers use a poly woofer, and I think that is a critical part of the design working. My guess is that those poly woofers have a smooth top end with no significant breakup. Not only does this allow for a simplified crossover (I don't think they play full range), but it avoids the brittle sound that you'd get with a woofer that has breakup. A lot of the larger PA drivers have a breakup range that is going to significantly color the sound, especially if you want the woofer to play full range. I looked at a few on Parts Express and they all seem to have a breakup node that's going to be quite audible.
Where in Missouri are you?? I've been working on a similar project....You said a bit more bass...If my modeling is correct you could have A LOT more bass! Sub 20hz extension...with a 4 cubic foot enclosure and a huge port tuned to about 21.5hz...the only way I figured I could do this is suspend the speaker on feet and vent out the bottom...I actually gave John Devore the idea for the Orangutan! Lol...I'm in independence
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You can pull it off with a well-damped, well-behaved woofer, like some of the designs mentioned in this thread. This type of design is not my favourite, but it tends to be very cost-effective and easy/fun to listen to, especially with non-audiophile recordings. I have some Peerless 10" CSX drivers and the big Wavecor tw030 waveguided tweeters, and have considered making an attempt at a similar design with those, crossed as low as the Wavecor could handle.
Reference 3a is IMO not a good example; their designs are plagued by on and off-axis frequency response problems and resonances, and are not something I'd recommend anyone try to replicate. Unless perhaps they had fallen in love with those specific colourations, and were looking to duplicate them.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/reference3a_mmdecapo/
Reference 3a is IMO not a good example; their designs are plagued by on and off-axis frequency response problems and resonances, and are not something I'd recommend anyone try to replicate. Unless perhaps they had fallen in love with those specific colourations, and were looking to duplicate them.
https://www.stereophile.com/content/reference-mm-de-capo-i-loudspeaker-measurements
https://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/reference3a_mmdecapo/
The bold green line is my alignment ...I built a sonotube sub with a 12" woofer that actually had a similar curve...it's fabulous...with a smooth exponential roll off it works with room acoustics instead of against them since it's approximately a mirror reverse of typical room gain...so I'm expecting them to have full bass extension....
The other aspect of my design is to use a standard tweeter in a waveguide instead of the XL exotic tweeter that comes with the A26 kit....going on Zaph audios TMM design, the waveguide should allow to tweeter to go plenty low enough to be crossed with the A26re4 woofer..
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