I’m going back and forth trying to decide if I want to build Ellipticor-4 or “The Loudspeaker” from Troels Gravesen as my new reference replacing Linkwitz LX521. While I love the LX521s I have an itch to build something new because building is part of the fun for me. I’d also like to get into building amps and 2 amp channels seems much more manageable for something like the Pass labs kits. I realize very few on this forum have heard either, and even fewer both. I have a whole basement to myself so size and looks aren’t a factor, I care about sound quality, dynamics and imaging most. I typically listen at < 90dB about 8 feet away.
I’ve designed and built many loudspeakers so complexity doesn’t intimidate me. I do have a full suite of measurement and design tools... Just looking for some arguments on what others would prefer and why. I’d like to stick with Troels stuff because I’ve leveraged many of his ideas and used some of his designs as starting points for my own with great success.
I’ve designed and built many loudspeakers so complexity doesn’t intimidate me. I do have a full suite of measurement and design tools... Just looking for some arguments on what others would prefer and why. I’d like to stick with Troels stuff because I’ve leveraged many of his ideas and used some of his designs as starting points for my own with great success.
I would go for the loudspeaker, but without the hypertweeter, just eq the compression driver and horn to be flat. SKip the silly prized crossover components or even better go active with dsp.
Then change the case to have minimal diffraction.
Also I would make sure that the of axis response is smooth.
This kind of design is proven to have high preference in double blind listening tests. But that's me.
Then change the case to have minimal diffraction.
Also I would make sure that the of axis response is smooth.
This kind of design is proven to have high preference in double blind listening tests. But that's me.
Yeah, “The Loudspeaker” was my first instinct. In LX521s I used both miniDSP and ASP.4 and found the analog processor significantly better; especially WRT soundstage. What’s a good DSP in current market that handles 2 in 8 out besides miniDSP? I’m not against DSP I just think the A/D and D/A is important. I use RME ADI-2 for DAC and some equalization and it does a fantastic job. With LX521, the DACs built into my AVM60 sound good but the RME sounds clearly better to my ears.
In Playing with my own designs, I can’t really distinguish cheap from more expensive poly caps so I’m with you there!
In Playing with my own designs, I can’t really distinguish cheap from more expensive poly caps so I’m with you there!
If your source is digital then you could use the minidsp nanodigi with four DACs to provide the 2x8 dsp solution. I looked at this using 4 khadas tone boards which measure really well especially with the coax spdif input and for £80 each does not break the bank. But you can use any four DACs or possibly a lucid 88192 (you may need to look into coax spdif to aes conversion) or buy another three RME’s.
Just a couple of ideas.
Just a couple of ideas.
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What Bill said... Use the 3-main(W-M-T) drivers Troels selected for "the Loudspeaker" in a new low edge-diffraction cabinet with active Xovers.
"I would go for the loudspeaker, but without the hypertweeter, just eq the compression driver and horn to be flat. Skip the silly prized crossover components or even better go active with dsp. Then change the case to have minimal diffraction." - Bill Coltrane
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Somewhere, over the RainBow.... Coaxial compression drivers like the new B&C DCX464 are being customer tested on waveguides/horns.
Before you decide to build a large speaker like Troels "the Loudspeaker", it seems worthwhile to study a few BMS 4594HE coaxial compression driver designs, and wait until a few B&C DCX464 designs are tested.
Should the midrange be a speaker like the 18Sound 10NMBA520 covering 200Hz - 1300Hz -OR- a coaxial horn like the B&C DCX464 which covers 400Hz - 19,000Hz?
If you decide to build Troels "the Loudspeaker" consider external DSP + amps for both wider hardware options, and easy future re-use on new builds.
Plate amps are forever.... putting a fan inside your speaker sounds like the punch line of a joke.
The 36" wide LeCleach eJMLC300 looks like the perfect basement horn.🙂
"I would go for the loudspeaker, but without the hypertweeter, just eq the compression driver and horn to be flat. Skip the silly prized crossover components or even better go active with dsp. Then change the case to have minimal diffraction." - Bill Coltrane
=======
Somewhere, over the RainBow.... Coaxial compression drivers like the new B&C DCX464 are being customer tested on waveguides/horns.
Before you decide to build a large speaker like Troels "the Loudspeaker", it seems worthwhile to study a few BMS 4594HE coaxial compression driver designs, and wait until a few B&C DCX464 designs are tested.
Should the midrange be a speaker like the 18Sound 10NMBA520 covering 200Hz - 1300Hz -OR- a coaxial horn like the B&C DCX464 which covers 400Hz - 19,000Hz?
If you decide to build Troels "the Loudspeaker" consider external DSP + amps for both wider hardware options, and easy future re-use on new builds.
Plate amps are forever.... putting a fan inside your speaker sounds like the punch line of a joke.
The 36" wide LeCleach eJMLC300 looks like the perfect basement horn.🙂
I don't understand how anyone commit this much on a kit with out knowing if they like it it? Is this a clone of a known great speaker and should sound amazing?
Now why did you have to go and show me those coax drivers? Looks like B&c will change the market if these things test well.... Maybe I’ll wait for the dust to settle...
jf4828, Maybe.... Find / sketch 3 possible designs which will work well in your listening room to research. Plan 2 future Left + Right stereo subwoofers.
1) Troels selected 3-main(W-M-T) "Loudspeaker" drivers a new low edge-diffraction cabinet with active Xovers. Experiment on cutting 2" - 3" radius quarter rounds on top, left, right baffle edges .
2) Coaxial compression driver in a plastic horn SEOS24, SEOS30, eJMLC300, plus a woofer box.
3) Coaxial compression driver in a home-made SYNERGY horn with added woofer ports to cover down to 100Hz.
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The BIG Question:
Should the midrange be a driver like the 18Sound 10NMBA520 covering 200Hz - 1300Hz?
-OR- a coaxial B&C DCX464 on a controlled directivity horn which covers 400Hz - 19,000Hz?
-OR- a coaxial CD in a Synergy-Horn which adds ported woofers for controlled directivity 100-19,000Hz?
100Hz two-way synergy project
1) Troels selected 3-main(W-M-T) "Loudspeaker" drivers a new low edge-diffraction cabinet with active Xovers. Experiment on cutting 2" - 3" radius quarter rounds on top, left, right baffle edges .
2) Coaxial compression driver in a plastic horn SEOS24, SEOS30, eJMLC300, plus a woofer box.
3) Coaxial compression driver in a home-made SYNERGY horn with added woofer ports to cover down to 100Hz.
===============
The BIG Question:
Should the midrange be a driver like the 18Sound 10NMBA520 covering 200Hz - 1300Hz?
-OR- a coaxial B&C DCX464 on a controlled directivity horn which covers 400Hz - 19,000Hz?
-OR- a coaxial CD in a Synergy-Horn which adds ported woofers for controlled directivity 100-19,000Hz?
100Hz two-way synergy project
The Loudspeaker will give you those "dynamics", but imaging will be more of the "point-source" variety.
The one thing I don't like about that design is the compression driver and horn selection.
The *compression driver and horn selection in Paul's Raptors would have been much better.
*18 Sound ND1460A Neodymium High Frequency Driver
..and speaking of that:
The Raptor ... a 10" MTM
Note the horizontal response (that has NO smoothing):
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Ellipticor D3404/552000 has shown desastrously bad distortion figures in this review: ScanSpeak D3404/552000 Ellipticor | HiFiCompass.
Maybe take a look at the upcoming Satori MD60N while roaming around for an interesting driver. If THD/IM/Multitone figures of this driver would be ok (data are not yet available), this driver could be a game-changing candidate for a basically new multiway setup including a dedicated driver in the 1.5kHz ... 5kHz range.
As you say: Waiting until dust settles ...
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