Considering New Production tubes, Not any original Branded stuff that thas a following...
Valves such as a 2A3 or 300B is made now by a number of makers.....
Looking at their construction In Comparison to something like an EL34, its a relatively simple device, only 1 grid, simple cathode and suspension, basic pressed-tin-box plates not mega tight tolerances needed for assembly etc,...
--Such DHT were developed and made in the 20's-30's when Really fine tolerances of valves were not easily reproducable anyway....
And yet, the likes of 300B are 4 or 5 times the price of a new prod. EL34--For a Cheapo one....
To my mind, a 'complicated' valve such as a Pentode like EL34/EL84 or Heptode frequency-changer that has loads of grids, needing careful alignment and odd beam-forming plates etc 'should' be more expensive--but they aint....
Does this all go back to the 'Cartel' that BVA had in UK where they set the price of valves....?
Or are we all being ripped by valve-makers again!🙁
Valves such as a 2A3 or 300B is made now by a number of makers.....
Looking at their construction In Comparison to something like an EL34, its a relatively simple device, only 1 grid, simple cathode and suspension, basic pressed-tin-box plates not mega tight tolerances needed for assembly etc,...
--Such DHT were developed and made in the 20's-30's when Really fine tolerances of valves were not easily reproducable anyway....
And yet, the likes of 300B are 4 or 5 times the price of a new prod. EL34--For a Cheapo one....
To my mind, a 'complicated' valve such as a Pentode like EL34/EL84 or Heptode frequency-changer that has loads of grids, needing careful alignment and odd beam-forming plates etc 'should' be more expensive--but they aint....
Does this all go back to the 'Cartel' that BVA had in UK where they set the price of valves....?
Or are we all being ripped by valve-makers again!🙁
"Sucker" products are always overpriced, both in respect to cost of production and what you get from them. But the "official" answer will be "hand made, low production runs, no "economy of scale" to reduce costs. You can believe that if you want . . .
Well, I'm sure it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that most customers are in the 'audiophile' hobby......🙄
Actually, it doesn't have much to do with any of this...
Consider how a DHT is made first. How is that different from indirectly heated tubes?
What is the difference in materials? How does a directly heated cathode work, how is it made?
What are the sources of materials?
Making these tubes, what are the yields like?
What sort of manufacturing problems and difficulties do you have?
How many tubes of the 2A3 and 300B types made in a year?
How does that compare to the EL34/6CA7 and 6L6 types?
From a business point of view, how many tubes does a small manufacturer of DHTs have to make and SELL in a year to survive - even in China or Eastern Europe??
Now, after figuring all this out, you have ur answer??
_-_-bear
Consider how a DHT is made first. How is that different from indirectly heated tubes?
What is the difference in materials? How does a directly heated cathode work, how is it made?
What are the sources of materials?
Making these tubes, what are the yields like?
What sort of manufacturing problems and difficulties do you have?
How many tubes of the 2A3 and 300B types made in a year?
How does that compare to the EL34/6CA7 and 6L6 types?
From a business point of view, how many tubes does a small manufacturer of DHTs have to make and SELL in a year to survive - even in China or Eastern Europe??
Now, after figuring all this out, you have ur answer??
_-_-bear
Any production today is costly, because price of dollar, especially in USA, is very low. It is called Inflation. That's why it is more profitable to build simpler production and heat up demand on it. More modern tubes still exist in old stocks, and their clones are in production in countries where the same Dollar is still more expensive.
Also, popular DHT tubes were designed when negative feedback was not applied yet, and cost of manufacturing of tubes was higher, so they were more valuable, that's why they were designed to be more linear than more efficient.
So, people who go for No-NFB fashion have to pay for DHT tubes designed in early years of tube manufacturing.
Also, popular DHT tubes were designed when negative feedback was not applied yet, and cost of manufacturing of tubes was higher, so they were more valuable, that's why they were designed to be more linear than more efficient.
So, people who go for No-NFB fashion have to pay for DHT tubes designed in early years of tube manufacturing.
The term DHT covers more than output tubes - it also covers small triodes like 26, 46, 01A and so on which are still reasonably priced on ebay and from some dealers. If you are interested in DHTs don't ignore these - they are superb.
Frankly it doesn't much matter how many new DHTs are made - there's plenty of old stock still and however wonderful they are they're hardly widely used.
andy
Frankly it doesn't much matter how many new DHTs are made - there's plenty of old stock still and however wonderful they are they're hardly widely used.
andy
Andy,
The #46 can serve as a driver or as a Class "B2" O/P tube. FWIW, I plan on building an "El Cheapo" variant with #46 "finals". Now to find the money. I already have the 4X #46 tubes.
The #46 can serve as a driver or as a Class "B2" O/P tube. FWIW, I plan on building an "El Cheapo" variant with #46 "finals". Now to find the money. I already have the 4X #46 tubes.
It's that concept, in combination with supply and demand. I'd imagine there is still quite a business manufacturing the EL34 and 6L6 types for the musical instrument (guitar amp) market. Who's buying the 2A3 and 300B? Only the audiophiles. If they're willing to pay, the manufacturers will be more than happy to charge what they can. It's just simple economics at work.
Precisely, and we all know what happens if the manufacturers cannot charge enough to make it worth their while..
FWIW I have a quartet of JJ 300B, and all have over 5K hours of use on them and have been completely reliable and continue to perform as well as when I bought them ten years ago. I can't say that about any of the cheaper beam tubes I use elsewhere - all have been replaced several times in the same period of time. (Of course I can't say that current JJ 300B production would be as good as a lot of water has gone under the bridge.)
At least you don't have to bother with heater-cathode breakdown! I junked a bunch of 807 which were awful for that, but still tested good for emission.
Andy
Andy
Let's put the shoe on the other foot, and ask why 12AX7's, 12AU7's, EL84's, EL34's, KT88's, 6550's, etc. are so cheap?
Guitar amps. IIRC, the guitar amp market is almost ten times bigger than the specialist audiophile market. Better yet, the demand is steady and consistent over the decades. Before the tube/triode revival in the late Eighties and early Nineties, who was keeping the tubes factories in Russia, China, and Yugoslavia open? It wasn't the hifi people; it was a steady, worldwide demand from guitarists, who are not satisfied with transistor imitations, and keep buying tubes and tube-powered guitar amps.
Aside from the historical appeal of 1950's guitar amps, why aren't there boutique guitar amps using DHTs? Unfortunately for direct-heated triode fans, DHTs just not rugged enough for touring duty. Tilt a hot DHT on its side, and the long filament can sag into the grid, causing immediate destruction. An indirect heater coiled up inside its sleeve is more resistant to tilting and vibration when hot. Like it or not, 12AX7's, 12AU7's, EL84's, EL34's, KT88's, 6550's are more rugged, and produce a sound that guitarists the world over like - and they buy a lot more of them than audiophiles and DIYer's do.
It's a safe bet that these tubes will remain in production for decades to come, while audiophile fashion comes and goes. How big was the market for 45's, 2A3's, and 300B's before the triode revival in the early Nineties? Very small - no more than a handful of hobbyists in Japan and even fewer in France and Italy. Read the American and British hifi magazines written in the Eighties - there is no mention of DHTs at all, except perhaps a humorous reference to weird Japanese hobbyists.
That's the reason for the price differential. Our market is much smaller, and worse from the perspective of an investor or a venture capitalist, driven by fads, so the chances of a long-term return are riskier, thus commanding a risk premium. By contrast, it's a safe bet that guitarists will continue to consume stocks of their favorite tubes, and pay a hefty premium for a severe-duty tube that makes a sound they like. The two business models are quite different; if it was your money, which would you rather invest in?
P.S. Given the realities of capitalism (I don't think we can expect the Cubans or North Koreans to go into tube production), there might be a possible niche for a "super-performance triode" version of the EL34 and KT88. Call them EL34T and KT88 Super, if you like. They would be plug-compatible with standard EL34's and KT88's, would omit the troublesome screen and suppressor grids, re-space the control grid, creating an indirect-heated triode that would be plug-compatible with most existing guitar and hifi-amp circuits. I have no idea how such a tube would measure or sound, but there's a real chance it would be an improvement over triode-connected pentodes, and would interest guitarists and hifi fans alike.
Hmm - I, and others in the tube biz, managed to persuade JJ to put a 7044/7119 tube back into production in the late Nineties. They changed the pinout to the 12AU7 pattern and called it the ECC99. I hope they made a profit on them. Maybe lightning can strike twice?
Guitar amps. IIRC, the guitar amp market is almost ten times bigger than the specialist audiophile market. Better yet, the demand is steady and consistent over the decades. Before the tube/triode revival in the late Eighties and early Nineties, who was keeping the tubes factories in Russia, China, and Yugoslavia open? It wasn't the hifi people; it was a steady, worldwide demand from guitarists, who are not satisfied with transistor imitations, and keep buying tubes and tube-powered guitar amps.
Aside from the historical appeal of 1950's guitar amps, why aren't there boutique guitar amps using DHTs? Unfortunately for direct-heated triode fans, DHTs just not rugged enough for touring duty. Tilt a hot DHT on its side, and the long filament can sag into the grid, causing immediate destruction. An indirect heater coiled up inside its sleeve is more resistant to tilting and vibration when hot. Like it or not, 12AX7's, 12AU7's, EL84's, EL34's, KT88's, 6550's are more rugged, and produce a sound that guitarists the world over like - and they buy a lot more of them than audiophiles and DIYer's do.
It's a safe bet that these tubes will remain in production for decades to come, while audiophile fashion comes and goes. How big was the market for 45's, 2A3's, and 300B's before the triode revival in the early Nineties? Very small - no more than a handful of hobbyists in Japan and even fewer in France and Italy. Read the American and British hifi magazines written in the Eighties - there is no mention of DHTs at all, except perhaps a humorous reference to weird Japanese hobbyists.
That's the reason for the price differential. Our market is much smaller, and worse from the perspective of an investor or a venture capitalist, driven by fads, so the chances of a long-term return are riskier, thus commanding a risk premium. By contrast, it's a safe bet that guitarists will continue to consume stocks of their favorite tubes, and pay a hefty premium for a severe-duty tube that makes a sound they like. The two business models are quite different; if it was your money, which would you rather invest in?
P.S. Given the realities of capitalism (I don't think we can expect the Cubans or North Koreans to go into tube production), there might be a possible niche for a "super-performance triode" version of the EL34 and KT88. Call them EL34T and KT88 Super, if you like. They would be plug-compatible with standard EL34's and KT88's, would omit the troublesome screen and suppressor grids, re-space the control grid, creating an indirect-heated triode that would be plug-compatible with most existing guitar and hifi-amp circuits. I have no idea how such a tube would measure or sound, but there's a real chance it would be an improvement over triode-connected pentodes, and would interest guitarists and hifi fans alike.
Hmm - I, and others in the tube biz, managed to persuade JJ to put a 7044/7119 tube back into production in the late Nineties. They changed the pinout to the 12AU7 pattern and called it the ECC99. I hope they made a profit on them. Maybe lightning can strike twice?
Last edited:
I agree with what Bear and several others have stated. The Audio market is a very small one to start with and the subset SET niche is quite a bit smaller that that. Any businessman can give you the answer and it has little, if anything, to do with a grand conspiracy by "them" (the bad capitalists) against "us" (the nice people).
Best Regards,
TerryO
Best Regards,
TerryO
No. 4P1L tube is better than 2A3, but it's cheap as a dirt. Gu-50 tube is better than KT-88, but it cheap as a dirt. Why? They were differently advertised... Well, there were no advertising on tubes used by military only...
Who makes it, who buys it, what it's used for, what it costs in materials, how efficiently it can be made (automation, computerization), capital costs (barrier to entry of manufacturing). Distribution costs, distribution market restrictions. I don't know ... things cost what they cost. If the market can support more manufacturers, the cost will go down due to competition. If the market can't, the price usually is some form of cost + profit pricing, followed by cost + profit distribution. You have Wall-Mart manufacturing and distribution on one side, and military-style guaranteed cost + contracts on the other.
Last edited:
Thread split to: - Status
- Not open for further replies.