Jericho horn speakers with Audio Nirvana Super 8"
Hi!
Soon I'm going to start building my pair of Jericho horns, and I'm wondering: How will it be if I use the Audio Nirvana Super 8" drivers instead of Fostex FE206E/FE208? I haven't heard any of them yet, but i have read that the AN's are better! I also hope to avoid use of correction filter.
Hope you can help me 🙂
Harald
(Sorry for my bad English)
Hi!
Soon I'm going to start building my pair of Jericho horns, and I'm wondering: How will it be if I use the Audio Nirvana Super 8" drivers instead of Fostex FE206E/FE208? I haven't heard any of them yet, but i have read that the AN's are better! I also hope to avoid use of correction filter.
Hope you can help me 🙂
Harald
(Sorry for my bad English)
Greets!
Your English grammar is better than many (most?) American's thanks to our pitiful government school system, sorry to say.
Based only on comparing published specs (which is probably worthless since A-N specs are apparently pure fiction), the cast version of the Super 8 MIGHT can be tuned 'close enough' (rear chamber, throat not optimal), but the basic Super 8 requires a much bigger rear chamber, throat, ergo much larger horn for a given cut-off.
Since typical 'full-range' ('FR') driver back loaded horns (BLH) are just extreme bass reflex (BR) alignments, the quick way to tell if a driver will work in a given BLH is to compare it's max flat alignment (typical box design default simulation) and the closer the box volume (Vb) and box tuning (Fb) is to the horn design's driver, the better chance it can be made to work, though best if the driver you want to use has a slightly smaller Vb and higher Fb since it's better to reduce rear chamber Vb and damp down any excessive HF band-width (BW) than use a contour filter to flatten any excessive mid-bass/lower mids and still probably have an audible dip in the acoustic XO BW (transition from horn to driver output).
Note that if driven with a high output impedance, then the impact of its series resistance on driver Qts (raises it) must be accounted for before making any comparisons.
GM
Your English grammar is better than many (most?) American's thanks to our pitiful government school system, sorry to say.
Based only on comparing published specs (which is probably worthless since A-N specs are apparently pure fiction), the cast version of the Super 8 MIGHT can be tuned 'close enough' (rear chamber, throat not optimal), but the basic Super 8 requires a much bigger rear chamber, throat, ergo much larger horn for a given cut-off.
Since typical 'full-range' ('FR') driver back loaded horns (BLH) are just extreme bass reflex (BR) alignments, the quick way to tell if a driver will work in a given BLH is to compare it's max flat alignment (typical box design default simulation) and the closer the box volume (Vb) and box tuning (Fb) is to the horn design's driver, the better chance it can be made to work, though best if the driver you want to use has a slightly smaller Vb and higher Fb since it's better to reduce rear chamber Vb and damp down any excessive HF band-width (BW) than use a contour filter to flatten any excessive mid-bass/lower mids and still probably have an audible dip in the acoustic XO BW (transition from horn to driver output).
Note that if driven with a high output impedance, then the impact of its series resistance on driver Qts (raises it) must be accounted for before making any comparisons.
GM
Thanks for answer 🙂
When do you think the roll-off will be with the AN driver, then? deepbass is really not that important to me, and if I only need to sacrifice a couple of Hz's, it's probably worth it 🙂
Have read some reviews on the AN drivers, and I am in love!
I'm also going to build a couple of small floorstanding speakers, using the Super 6,5 drivers 🙂
Harald
When do you think the roll-off will be with the AN driver, then? deepbass is really not that important to me, and if I only need to sacrifice a couple of Hz's, it's probably worth it 🙂
Have read some reviews on the AN drivers, and I am in love!
I'm also going to build a couple of small floorstanding speakers, using the Super 6,5 drivers 🙂
Harald
You're welcome!
Don't know, haven't reverse engineered it, but its response shouldn't have much, if any, audible difference than with whatever driver it was designed for if you use a similar spec unit.
GM
Don't know, haven't reverse engineered it, but its response shouldn't have much, if any, audible difference than with whatever driver it was designed for if you use a similar spec unit.
GM
You said something about bigger rear chamber. The jericho horn is pretty easy to modify like that. How much bigger will it need to be? It's also simple to tighten the throat a bit 🙂
I'd really like to use the AN drivers in this construction! 😉
Harald
I'd really like to use the AN drivers in this construction! 😉
Harald
I sent an e-mail to Commonsense Audio asking if the AN driver would be suitable for the jericho-horn, and here is what they replied:
Hello,
The free air resonance of Audio Nirvana and Fostex drivers are almost the same, so they work in the same cabinets.
In any event the Fostex FE206E has too much excursion (or Xmax) for most horns. It is plus or minus 1.5 mm.
For comparison, Lowther drivers are plus or minus .75 mm and Audio Nirvana are plus or minus 1.0 mm.
And the midrange and highs of Audio Nirvana are many times superior to Fostex.
Regards, David
Harald
Hello,
The free air resonance of Audio Nirvana and Fostex drivers are almost the same, so they work in the same cabinets.
In any event the Fostex FE206E has too much excursion (or Xmax) for most horns. It is plus or minus 1.5 mm.
For comparison, Lowther drivers are plus or minus .75 mm and Audio Nirvana are plus or minus 1.0 mm.
And the midrange and highs of Audio Nirvana are many times superior to Fostex.
Regards, David
Harald
Speaking strictly as a newb, Fs is just one parameter. For two drivers to be comparable, you have to look at more than just Fs. What about Vas, Qts, the frequency response, the impedance curve etc.?
Also, I don't think a driver can have "too much" excursion, especialy when that excursion figure is already somewhat miniscule. 🙂
But let's see what others say! This is definitely an interesting undertaking, Harald, and I look forward to reading more.
Also, I don't think a driver can have "too much" excursion, especialy when that excursion figure is already somewhat miniscule. 🙂
But let's see what others say! This is definitely an interesting undertaking, Harald, and I look forward to reading more.
I'm afraid David's reply indicates little other than his ignorance WRT basic principles of horn theory and design, which can probably be extended to other box design too, judging from what I've seen of the CSA BR cabinets.
Utter nonsense. They might fit, but that's about as far as you can take it. You drop one into a box designed for the other, it's not going to be optimal. Two little facts:
1/ Fs, as pointed out, is but one aspect of a driver's performance or behaviour. If you judged solely by that, then the Visaton B200 (measured Qt about 0.9, 130 litre Vas) would work just fine in the Jericho. Which naturally it won't -the response will be so bad, I prefer not to think about it, and shall have to go and lie down quietly after typing this. And
2/ For the sake of interest, once you get to ~optimal horns, Fs really isn't a matter of concern anyway; you can take a little 3in FF85K (Fs of around 130Hz) down to 30Hz if you've got the space. Quite why you'd want to is another matter entirely, but you get the idea.
Rubbish, and true, respectively. Most BLHs like the Jericho are simply extreme BR boxes (as GM has pointed out above), and therefore, a reasonable amount of linear travel is both acceptable, and actually rather useful to have. The 206 does, however, have a 1.5mm Xmax each way, so at least that's a correct piece of information. More of which in a minute.
Duff gen (again). Lowther drivers have 1mm travel each way (I was talking to someone from the factory about this very point a few months back); exactly the same as the ANs. However, we're talking Xmax here, i.e. the linear travel of the driver, not the limit of mechanical travel; in the latter case, the Fostex & AN are much of a muchness, in the Lowther's, a little less. All are rather more than their Xmax, which is neither here nor there in the context (I presume) David is talking about.
Oh yeah? Says who? Ahhh, of course; the man selling them, who has a financial interest in the matter as they are 'his' drivers. Not exactly an objective party, wouldn't you say? 😉
Caveat emptor!
Utter nonsense. They might fit, but that's about as far as you can take it. You drop one into a box designed for the other, it's not going to be optimal. Two little facts:
1/ Fs, as pointed out, is but one aspect of a driver's performance or behaviour. If you judged solely by that, then the Visaton B200 (measured Qt about 0.9, 130 litre Vas) would work just fine in the Jericho. Which naturally it won't -the response will be so bad, I prefer not to think about it, and shall have to go and lie down quietly after typing this. And
2/ For the sake of interest, once you get to ~optimal horns, Fs really isn't a matter of concern anyway; you can take a little 3in FF85K (Fs of around 130Hz) down to 30Hz if you've got the space. Quite why you'd want to is another matter entirely, but you get the idea.
Rubbish, and true, respectively. Most BLHs like the Jericho are simply extreme BR boxes (as GM has pointed out above), and therefore, a reasonable amount of linear travel is both acceptable, and actually rather useful to have. The 206 does, however, have a 1.5mm Xmax each way, so at least that's a correct piece of information. More of which in a minute.
Duff gen (again). Lowther drivers have 1mm travel each way (I was talking to someone from the factory about this very point a few months back); exactly the same as the ANs. However, we're talking Xmax here, i.e. the linear travel of the driver, not the limit of mechanical travel; in the latter case, the Fostex & AN are much of a muchness, in the Lowther's, a little less. All are rather more than their Xmax, which is neither here nor there in the context (I presume) David is talking about.
Oh yeah? Says who? Ahhh, of course; the man selling them, who has a financial interest in the matter as they are 'his' drivers. Not exactly an objective party, wouldn't you say? 😉
Caveat emptor!
The Vas and the QTS of the two drivers are pretty different, but I've been told that in a BLH, the frequency and the Fs is the most important, and since those are pretty equal, I hope the AN drivers will work fine. I'm probably going to start with a pair of the Super 8's, and if they don't give good enough results, I buy a pair of FE206E's too.
I can always build a set of 2.8 enclosures for the Super 8 drivers as well 😉
Harald
I can always build a set of 2.8 enclosures for the Super 8 drivers as well 😉
Harald
I don't know who told you that, but as I pointed out above, if you followed that logic, you could just stuff any driver into a horn and expect it to work if it happens to have an Fs near that of the unit it was designed for. It doesn't work like that I'm afraid. Look at the attached for sake of example. This is the modelled FR of a horn with three different drivers fitted, all of which have roughly the same free air resonant frequency (disregard everything over 250Hz BTW). The top shows the response with the design driver. The middle plot is with another unit, with somewhat higher Q & Vas. The lower plot is for a driver with a still higher Q and Vas. What do you think?
The cast frame AN might work passably, but the LF will be weak compared to what it should be. The other AN units will be worse. I know you don't want to hear it, but you can't circumvent the laws of physics, and hoping that something might work in the face of basic principles isn't going to do you any favours, although it will potentially waste a lot of your time and money for no good reason. BTW, the Jericho, IIRC, was designed for the defunct Fostex FE208Sigma (not the 206, or the current FE208ESigma).
The cast frame AN might work passably, but the LF will be weak compared to what it should be. The other AN units will be worse. I know you don't want to hear it, but you can't circumvent the laws of physics, and hoping that something might work in the face of basic principles isn't going to do you any favours, although it will potentially waste a lot of your time and money for no good reason. BTW, the Jericho, IIRC, was designed for the defunct Fostex FE208Sigma (not the 206, or the current FE208ESigma).
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hagr said:
In a BLH where you want the driver's extended BW to mate to the horn's output, then the driver's Fs matters in that being basically a big vent reflex (BVR) it's not normally a good plan to tune it below ~0.707x Fs, same as a typical vented alignment unless it has a higher Qts, though its typically excessively large size (witness high Qts BIB alignments) is usually unacceptable.
Where the driver's Fs becomes a key factor is when you want the absolute maximum point source gain BW from a given driver, i.e. in effect a FLH that requires a compression (rear) chamber volume (Vb). Since such a horn is acoustically damped to the point where a driver with a Qts = 2.0 has been damped to a critically damped 0.5, any BW above its point source (rising response) BW will be damped down to uselessness. Note that this is an extreme example to make a point and not to be construed as a viable design except where such a high gain, limited BW alignment would be desirable.
Bottom line, if you choose your drivers the way I suggested, your chance of success with existing horn designs will be much greater than any other way folk's with a personal agenda will offer AFAIK and if you don't know the driver specs it was designed for, then all I know to do is input the horn's specs into HornResp or AkAbak and see what it looks like with whatever driver(s) you want to use. That, or continue blindly on as most folks did before such high tech luxuries were available at any price.
GM
There is a new version using a Ciare driver which came out last year. I still have my originals using the FE208 Sigma, wonderful speakers to my ears.
new Jerico
Thanks for many great answers 🙂
I have read some reviews by people who have tried both FE206E and FE208E in the Jericho-horn and the results are amazing. Although the FE208E drivers are more expensive, people claim that the FE206E's sound much better in this construction! That's why I decided to go for the Jericho-horn in the first place.
I'll drop using AN drivers in the horns, but I'm going to build a couple of floorstanding speakers with the AN's. When I've already got the AN drivers, I might as well just try them in the horn 😉
I'll post the results here when it is time!
Harald
I have read some reviews by people who have tried both FE206E and FE208E in the Jericho-horn and the results are amazing. Although the FE208E drivers are more expensive, people claim that the FE206E's sound much better in this construction! That's why I decided to go for the Jericho-horn in the first place.
I'll drop using AN drivers in the horns, but I'm going to build a couple of floorstanding speakers with the AN's. When I've already got the AN drivers, I might as well just try them in the horn 😉
I'll post the results here when it is time!
Harald
Wise choice. I'm not surprised -in practice, the 206 comes out closer to the 208Sigma (non 'E' model) the Jericho was designed for than the current ESigma model does. The FF225K works quite well in it too, providing high SPLs are not on the agenda.
AN Super 8 CF BIB
Sorry for being off thread with this question....but would a AN Super 8 (cast frame) work well in a BIB? I have a set of these drivers sitting around gathering dust.
The BIB concept appears to mate well with my room and the unused 300B SET power amps I have (gathering dust also).
Thanks,
Mark
Sorry for being off thread with this question....but would a AN Super 8 (cast frame) work well in a BIB? I have a set of these drivers sitting around gathering dust.
The BIB concept appears to mate well with my room and the unused 300B SET power amps I have (gathering dust also).
Thanks,
Mark
Have you ever heard any of the ANs?
Not to **** you off with my first message here but since Scottmoose and GM are so vocal about the AN I must ask if anyone of them ever heard and Audio Nirvana driver, in which enclosure and which model. Your names have much weight around here and you are really putting the brand down.
I heard the AN super8 lately in a tiny BR box and they sounded quite impressive in the midrange, quite pleasurable. I kept forgetting to listen to the drivers while I was driven to the music all the time. I've heard the Lowther DX3 in BLH on 4-5 different occasions/places/enclosure. Great quality but each time the 'special' sound (ever so slightly papery, very present but not quite natural) distracted me.
I don't know anything about the Fostex except the praise that I read and that some find that they shout at you.
Not to **** you off with my first message here but since Scottmoose and GM are so vocal about the AN I must ask if anyone of them ever heard and Audio Nirvana driver, in which enclosure and which model. Your names have much weight around here and you are really putting the brand down.
I heard the AN super8 lately in a tiny BR box and they sounded quite impressive in the midrange, quite pleasurable. I kept forgetting to listen to the drivers while I was driven to the music all the time. I've heard the Lowther DX3 in BLH on 4-5 different occasions/places/enclosure. Great quality but each time the 'special' sound (ever so slightly papery, very present but not quite natural) distracted me.
I don't know anything about the Fostex except the praise that I read and that some find that they shout at you.
Re: Have you ever heard any of the ANs?
I don't think GM or Scott has said anything against the AN themselves (ignoring the know lack of rigor that David Dicks approaches speaker box design), just that on the face of it, it does not look to be suitable for the Jerico horn.
I have heard the AN10 (not the super) in the CS box and i was not imopressed. They suffer from the same severe cone resonances as the Silver Iris. There are ways to reduce these problems, but by how much won't be known until one gets done up. It will be interesting to hear them again since John has changed the porting on the box to something much more resonable and he has stiffened the box. He is also working thru a series of driver mods -- don't know how far he has gotten.
dave
JeanM said:
I don't think GM or Scott has said anything against the AN themselves (ignoring the know lack of rigor that David Dicks approaches speaker box design), just that on the face of it, it does not look to be suitable for the Jerico horn.
I have heard the AN10 (not the super) in the CS box and i was not imopressed. They suffer from the same severe cone resonances as the Silver Iris. There are ways to reduce these problems, but by how much won't be known until one gets done up. It will be interesting to hear them again since John has changed the porting on the box to something much more resonable and he has stiffened the box. He is also working thru a series of driver mods -- don't know how far he has gotten.
dave
Re: Have you ever heard any of the ANs?
I've said nothing against the drivers, other than the fact that they are not a particularly good choice for the Jericho horn, which was not designed for them?
I have pointed out that the claimed driver specs are more or less fictional, and that David Dicks is not an objective source of information, given that he is financially motivated, that his knowledge of horn design is clearly minimal, and that he supplied incorrect information.
Since you ask, I have heard most of the smaller AN range at some point or other (not heard the 12in or 15in units yet), in various enclosures. They're reasonable enough, but obviously built down to a price. The cast frame 8in was the pick of the bunch that I heard.
You weren't convinced by the Lowthers then? You're not alone; I'm not a huge fan of them either.
JeanM said:
I've said nothing against the drivers, other than the fact that they are not a particularly good choice for the Jericho horn, which was not designed for them?
I have pointed out that the claimed driver specs are more or less fictional, and that David Dicks is not an objective source of information, given that he is financially motivated, that his knowledge of horn design is clearly minimal, and that he supplied incorrect information.
Since you ask, I have heard most of the smaller AN range at some point or other (not heard the 12in or 15in units yet), in various enclosures. They're reasonable enough, but obviously built down to a price. The cast frame 8in was the pick of the bunch that I heard.
You weren't convinced by the Lowthers then? You're not alone; I'm not a huge fan of them either.
Re: AN Super 8 CF BIB
Yes of course. Essentially any driver can be used, although naturally not all are in the realms of practicality. Just use one of the several calculators to size one. Based on the published specs. you're looking at a cabinet 78.25in tall, CSA of 129.375in^2 & Zdriver of 34in, but take that for what it's worth given the known inaccuracy of the official data. Up side is the BIB has plenty of fudge-factor, so it'll probably work reasonably enough as-is providing you have corners to load them.
mark_maya said:
Yes of course. Essentially any driver can be used, although naturally not all are in the realms of practicality. Just use one of the several calculators to size one. Based on the published specs. you're looking at a cabinet 78.25in tall, CSA of 129.375in^2 & Zdriver of 34in, but take that for what it's worth given the known inaccuracy of the official data. Up side is the BIB has plenty of fudge-factor, so it'll probably work reasonably enough as-is providing you have corners to load them.
Hello,
"Not to **** you off with my first message here but since Scottmoose and GM are so vocal about the AN I must ask if anyone of them ever heard and Audio Nirvana driver, in which enclosure and which model. Your names have much weight around here and you are really putting the brand down."
i have heard the AN 8" in comparing to FE206 E, B200, Lowther
in my SAXOPHON, for me the AN sound very good, the highs
are a bit better as the 206 E, difference is small and for me in english not writeable.
"Not to **** you off with my first message here but since Scottmoose and GM are so vocal about the AN I must ask if anyone of them ever heard and Audio Nirvana driver, in which enclosure and which model. Your names have much weight around here and you are really putting the brand down."
i have heard the AN 8" in comparing to FE206 E, B200, Lowther
in my SAXOPHON, for me the AN sound very good, the highs
are a bit better as the 206 E, difference is small and for me in english not writeable.
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