I frequently shop for electronics on Mouser and Digikey for work. I probably spend at least 5 hours a week searching through those sites for various projects.
Out of curiosity I searched for some capacitors since I am about to place an order for a crossover network I have been working on .
One cap in my network is 220 uf. Very expensive unless its an electrolytic. Hopped on over to Mouser and found some WIMA caps. These are quality caps. Is there a parameter I am missing that is exclusive to audio applications? Why are we not buying caps like these WIMA?
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/DCP4G062209FD4JSC9?qs=RB4whv9F6rw8KxtVmsusdw==
Instead, if I go Parts Express and look up a 220uf cap I see this is the only choice and it costs a hefty $90. Double and then some of the WIMA caphttps://www.parts-express.com/Jantzen-0296-220.00-uF-400V-Cross-Cap-Series-Crossover-Capacitor-027-962?quantity=1
In my experience in manufacturing ring you are almost always better off buying an industrial, mass produced version of something rather than the boutique item. The mass produced are held to tighter tolerances. They are usually priced much better since they are mass produced. Sometimes the quality of parts inside are even better simply because they can buy better stuff since they have far more purchasing power.
Has anyone gone outside the mould and tried using industrial style caps? I'll bet if we crack open any commercial hifi units made to any volume the XO probably uses stuff like this instead of boutique cylindrical caps.
Out of curiosity I searched for some capacitors since I am about to place an order for a crossover network I have been working on .
One cap in my network is 220 uf. Very expensive unless its an electrolytic. Hopped on over to Mouser and found some WIMA caps. These are quality caps. Is there a parameter I am missing that is exclusive to audio applications? Why are we not buying caps like these WIMA?
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/DCP4G062209FD4JSC9?qs=RB4whv9F6rw8KxtVmsusdw==
Instead, if I go Parts Express and look up a 220uf cap I see this is the only choice and it costs a hefty $90. Double and then some of the WIMA caphttps://www.parts-express.com/Jantzen-0296-220.00-uF-400V-Cross-Cap-Series-Crossover-Capacitor-027-962?quantity=1
In my experience in manufacturing ring you are almost always better off buying an industrial, mass produced version of something rather than the boutique item. The mass produced are held to tighter tolerances. They are usually priced much better since they are mass produced. Sometimes the quality of parts inside are even better simply because they can buy better stuff since they have far more purchasing power.
Has anyone gone outside the mould and tried using industrial style caps? I'll bet if we crack open any commercial hifi units made to any volume the XO probably uses stuff like this instead of boutique cylindrical caps.
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I use epcos, 25 uf and some 55 and 75 uf in tube amps, they are way better than electrolytic.
Preferably round capacitors are better but I am not so sure... there must be a reason.
Preferably round capacitors are better but I am not so sure... there must be a reason.
Round film capacitors are round because of how they are made, by winding on a machine.
Some such types are then deliberately squashed into an oval to compress the windings.
Some such types are then deliberately squashed into an oval to compress the windings.
My best advice to you is to find a way to experiment inexpensively. Mundorf MKP, Solen and Axon have larger value film caps in that price range. However if you are learning about whether or not you can hear a difference, the mid and tweeters are usually better places and more affordable places to experiment.
I think this is fun stuff, and you'll either learn you can't hear a difference, and don't want to spend more money or you'll find out you have strong preferences. Still, keep your education affordable by sticking to value brands/models. 🙂
I think this is fun stuff, and you'll either learn you can't hear a difference, and don't want to spend more money or you'll find out you have strong preferences. Still, keep your education affordable by sticking to value brands/models. 🙂
I have experimented with caps only my living room 3 ways so far. I didn't like the film caps. That's said, I cannot even get the values of the electrolytics I need so I figured I would just go all quality caps on this one.
Trying to rule out the "I'm used to this sound so I like it" deal I may have experienced when swapping out the caps on my 3 ways.
I reverted the 3 ways back to electrolytic caps. The tweeter already had film caps so that didn't change
one other thing to consider is that if your cap's ESR is changing a lot, then your output levels are changing too. It's useful to use a simulator like XSim or VituixCAD for questions like that.
I made the same mistake decades ago when I substituted films for the electrolytics in the my 3 way AR58LS, good crossover designers will account for the capacitor ESR and the inductor DCR in the design. My end result was more detail, but never sounded quite right. (Hard and bright sounding) I subsequently learned a lot about practical XO design by doing it as part of my daily job.
If the original electrolytics are not ancient I would start by measuring their ESR and then try small values of series resistance with the film cap - as little as a few hundred milli-ohms might be all it takes to sort things out.
I'll note that I did not have problems with quite complex passive XO of my own design, only with modified commercial XO.
I would not bother with films for the electrolytics in the woofer crossover - I would replace with bipolar electrolytics of same value and comparable or better quality.
Something to note is that most boutique capacitors are made by major well known capacitor manufacturers and are built to specification. For the most part you are paying the middleman and dealer mark ups for those parts. In some cases if I want something specific I will splash for the boutique cap but often go for metallized PP caps made by Vishay or Cornell-Dubilier instead. (For foil I think for the most part the only viable choice is boutique or surplus these days)
If the original electrolytics are not ancient I would start by measuring their ESR and then try small values of series resistance with the film cap - as little as a few hundred milli-ohms might be all it takes to sort things out.
I'll note that I did not have problems with quite complex passive XO of my own design, only with modified commercial XO.
I would not bother with films for the electrolytics in the woofer crossover - I would replace with bipolar electrolytics of same value and comparable or better quality.
Something to note is that most boutique capacitors are made by major well known capacitor manufacturers and are built to specification. For the most part you are paying the middleman and dealer mark ups for those parts. In some cases if I want something specific I will splash for the boutique cap but often go for metallized PP caps made by Vishay or Cornell-Dubilier instead. (For foil I think for the most part the only viable choice is boutique or surplus these days)
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Yeah, I was looking at this. I can get a 22uf MKT for $7 or pay a little more for a PP cap
Yes, I am using VituixCAD. It basically assumes you are using a low ESR cap. We have an ESR tester at work in the embedded quad but I do not know how to use it. I should figure that out just so I know how electrolytics of different values affect the audio
I usually do this, however, I could not get the value of the larger on in an electrolytic. The 33 uf I could get an electrolytic but since it would be the only other one than the 220uf ..... I figured why not go full bore
Yes. These Wima caps are non-stocked at Mouser. The nice price is per unit IF you buy 50 for $1,908.50 and wait and wait for delivery, IF Mouser accepts the order, because they apparently have to buy 500 units as minimum delivery
OP: You can get impedance and ESR from the Room EQ Wizard impedance measurements I believe or buy Dayton DATS or similar.
Depends what you mean by mass production, most are produced at the rate of thousands per hour.
And most of the boutique type may simply be the better spec parts separated at inspection time before marking.
An example is that Mauser Type 98 rifles were marked for sniper use if the were better than average during firing checks at the factory firing range.
I would stick to top brands and regular type capacitors.
The Japanese make very tight tolerance and durable capacitors, within spec after 26 years is impressive...in my Mitsubishi PLC, made in 1992, checked in 2018.
No ties, just being helpful.
And most of the boutique type may simply be the better spec parts separated at inspection time before marking.
An example is that Mauser Type 98 rifles were marked for sniper use if the were better than average during firing checks at the factory firing range.
I would stick to top brands and regular type capacitors.
The Japanese make very tight tolerance and durable capacitors, within spec after 26 years is impressive...in my Mitsubishi PLC, made in 1992, checked in 2018.
No ties, just being helpful.
Yeah.... I just saw the minimum order quantity. I found some similar KEMET ones at digikey though. I'll grab a pair of those.
You may notice that any capacitor with the word audio on it has a higher price than an equivalent without. Parts Express tends to have many such capacitors, and even charges more for resistors than equivalents at Digikey and Mouser, though Parts Express still looks like a great place to buy drivers.
Whether these sound better is a matter ofABX tests opinion. I like good audio, but I like saving money too, and like most other things in engineering, it's a tradeoff - does the more expensive thing (or even the other thing) sound better? If so, how does it do so?
The high price of passive "speaker-level" crossover components (did you see the air-core inductor thread) may lead to alternatives such as bi-amping and tri-amping, which may cost an equivalent amount but give different results. Rod Elliot wrote something about bi-amping, either the old fashioned way with line-level analog crossovers (using inexpensive components), or with the newfangled DSPs.
Whether these sound better is a matter of
The high price of passive "speaker-level" crossover components (did you see the air-core inductor thread) may lead to alternatives such as bi-amping and tri-amping, which may cost an equivalent amount but give different results. Rod Elliot wrote something about bi-amping, either the old fashioned way with line-level analog crossovers (using inexpensive components), or with the newfangled DSPs.
Those industrial caps are as good (if they are with tight tollerances) i think, it's just hard to get them in small quantities, and their design is more fit for industrial pcb making, not manual soldering point to point (like many still make their crossovers). Idem with resistors, as long as they are low inductance and can't handle the power needed, they are as good as "hifi" ones, they are just hard to get in small quantities like we diy'ers need.