hey guys, im a just joined member, getting ready to get into car audio, i dont have a lot of room for the setup i have in mind and am planning to use two 10" JL 10w7 (comment on these plz) and some unnamed amp (suggestions are welcome) im not really going for spl, i just want it to hit hard and sound great. if this setup doesnt work because of my space limitations, i was wondering if it would be ok to mix sub sizes and run one 12 and one 10 my reasoning is to get the lower freq notes from the 12 with the ability to hit harder with the 10. i realize im a newb and this may be dumb, feel free to flame
thnx for ur input, this forum is great
thnx for ur input, this forum is great
97avenger said:
How can we flame somone who's so nice? Welcome to the forums.
Mixing your woofers is not a good idea. If you find you are unhappy with the two 10's then adding a 12 isn't going to make it better. You will need two better 10's. The only real way to make different woofers work together is with a crossover that separates the sound and sends a different signal to each driver as you were hinting at. That being said, there's no reason to go that route.
Cal
Like Cal said, it can be done, but only if each sub has its own designated frequency range. So you could have the 12 play from 20-50, and the 10 play from 50-100, or whatever you decided upon. That said, it's not really necessary in a car setup. Bass starts become directional around 80hz or so, which means if you have your sub playing much above ~80hz, you will actually hear the sounds coming from your trunk (as opposed to lower frequencies which just sound like they're coming from everywhere). This isn't a very good thing, and it's why a sub-100hz lowpass is recommended for any setup that has a rear-mounted sub. Also, any half-decent sub should be able to play the entire 20-80hz range in the recommended sealed box without much difficulty. Larger sub are better with the lower frequencies because they generally have a lower Fs (start rolling off at a lower frequency), and they have a higher displacement which allows more output before distortion (which is important at low frequencies where you need a lot of displacement for respectable output). But 12's can also play up to 80hz or so without a problem, so there's no need to use a smaller sub to handle the "upper bass", because a decent 12 will be able to handle everything you should be feeding it.
10's should only be used IMO if you are absolutely sure they'll have enough output, or if larger subs simply aren't an option in your vehicle. In your case, you're looking at the w7s which are capable of a lot of output, but it's a waste of money IMO to go with a pair of 10's when a single 12 could get just as loud on less power while taking up less space and delivering a similar frequency response.
Make sure if you go with a sub of that calibur that you have a front stage that's able to keep up with it. If you have a stock front stage you might as well go with some Kickers or something because you will never be able to let the w7 live up to its potential. A good sub like that is nothing without a strong set of components to fill in the rest of the sound.
10's should only be used IMO if you are absolutely sure they'll have enough output, or if larger subs simply aren't an option in your vehicle. In your case, you're looking at the w7s which are capable of a lot of output, but it's a waste of money IMO to go with a pair of 10's when a single 12 could get just as loud on less power while taking up less space and delivering a similar frequency response.
Make sure if you go with a sub of that calibur that you have a front stage that's able to keep up with it. If you have a stock front stage you might as well go with some Kickers or something because you will never be able to let the w7 live up to its potential. A good sub like that is nothing without a strong set of components to fill in the rest of the sound.
well, my problem is not volumetric space, its really a matter of width, or as far as the subs are concerned diameter. i want to take out the "middle" seat in my back seat (coupe car so small seats) and will reupholster the two side seats to form individual bucket seats. then im gonna glass/mdf an enclosure that comes down from the rear deck down to the floor with the two tens sitting on top of one another (like a double barrel shotgun if that helps) i want the amps in the trunk and i will probably get another red or yellow top battery along with the recommended caps. as far as output, ive been reading some reviews on the w7s and most guys are saying that with the jl 500w rms mono amps or even the 1000wrms mono bridged (terminology?) they can make their eyes shake in their sockets even while standing outside of the car. i do like a little rap, rock and punk music, so i feel that the 10s will suit my music needs best, but of course i dont know because ive never purchased subs b4.
my gf does have the jl w7 or the smaller version 10" in her cougar and it hits harder, yet doesnt sound as good (i blame it on poor box design) than anybody in the town of 15000 that i live in
plz feel free to recommend some amps or subs that would be suitable for my application
*edit* as far as components go, i have a pioneer premiere headunit the 7400d i think, premiere 6x9 in the back and 6.75 in doors, sounds great now, enuff to make most guys with sony or cheaper subs very jealous, even with those speakers running off of headunit power, with the sfeq that the pioneer provides, i dont imagine "keeping up" will be a problem, unless i will have negative effects from having the 6x9s behind the subs as far as sound staging goes
thnx for the help so far, again yall r wonderful people
my gf does have the jl w7 or the smaller version 10" in her cougar and it hits harder, yet doesnt sound as good (i blame it on poor box design) than anybody in the town of 15000 that i live in
plz feel free to recommend some amps or subs that would be suitable for my application
*edit* as far as components go, i have a pioneer premiere headunit the 7400d i think, premiere 6x9 in the back and 6.75 in doors, sounds great now, enuff to make most guys with sony or cheaper subs very jealous, even with those speakers running off of headunit power, with the sfeq that the pioneer provides, i dont imagine "keeping up" will be a problem, unless i will have negative effects from having the 6x9s behind the subs as far as sound staging goes
thnx for the help so far, again yall r wonderful people
Honestly, with some pioneer coaxs in front and back running off of cheap headunit power, I wouldn't go with the w7. Without a good (and I mean good) front stage, you'll never see the benefit of having a w7 over say, a w3. Without a smooth and solid sub/midbass transition and a good stage up front (which isn't happening with full range speakers in the rear), most decent subs in a decent alignment will sound about the same.
It sounds like you're at least somewhat interested in sound quality, so I would stay sealed, but you can pick almost any pair of decent 10s and you'll get about the same result as the w7s (in this case) with a lot of money saved. If you then put that money into a real front stage, you'd end up with something that sounds MUCH better than 4 coaxs on headunit power with a pair of w7s.
Also, cone size has little-to-nothing to do with the quality of the sound, it's all a function of the quality (and design goal) of the sub and the box you're using. A larger sub will generally have a lower Fs, which will allow it to play lower before rolling off with basically zero negatives, apart from requiring a larger box. I use a 15 and listen to almost entirely rock and metal and wouldn't have it any other way. There are a LOT of myths in car audio, "underpowering blows speakers", "overpowering blows speakers", "large subs are sloppy", "small subs are punchy", the list goes on and on. In my opinion, someone should use a single sub of the largest size they're able to fit or are willing to give up the room for. A smaller sub should only be used if the individual is positive it will have enough output for them, or if there are some space constraints in the vehicle (which there appear to be with your setup).
If I were in your shoes, I would take the rear speakers out, completely seal up the rear deck, do what you were planning with the 10's but use IDMAXs instead without a box (it's called infinite baffle and the IDMAXs are designed to work very well in it) and use something like a phoenix gold xenon 1200.1 to power them. I'd then take the money saved, deaden the front doors and replace the front speakers with something worthy of an IB IDMAX substage and get a strong amp for them....but that's me.
It sounds like you're at least somewhat interested in sound quality, so I would stay sealed, but you can pick almost any pair of decent 10s and you'll get about the same result as the w7s (in this case) with a lot of money saved. If you then put that money into a real front stage, you'd end up with something that sounds MUCH better than 4 coaxs on headunit power with a pair of w7s.
Also, cone size has little-to-nothing to do with the quality of the sound, it's all a function of the quality (and design goal) of the sub and the box you're using. A larger sub will generally have a lower Fs, which will allow it to play lower before rolling off with basically zero negatives, apart from requiring a larger box. I use a 15 and listen to almost entirely rock and metal and wouldn't have it any other way. There are a LOT of myths in car audio, "underpowering blows speakers", "overpowering blows speakers", "large subs are sloppy", "small subs are punchy", the list goes on and on. In my opinion, someone should use a single sub of the largest size they're able to fit or are willing to give up the room for. A smaller sub should only be used if the individual is positive it will have enough output for them, or if there are some space constraints in the vehicle (which there appear to be with your setup).
If I were in your shoes, I would take the rear speakers out, completely seal up the rear deck, do what you were planning with the 10's but use IDMAXs instead without a box (it's called infinite baffle and the IDMAXs are designed to work very well in it) and use something like a phoenix gold xenon 1200.1 to power them. I'd then take the money saved, deaden the front doors and replace the front speakers with something worthy of an IB IDMAX substage and get a strong amp for them....but that's me.
great reply, i should have mentioned that i soundmatted the doors and will be doing the floor pan and headboard when this install happens. to clarify, you are suggesting to completely remove the 6x9 from the back, and get a good component set up front, ie, either a set or run mebbe some 6.5 and some tweeters with an aftermarket amp
in short, money isnot going to be an issue, id rather pay more now than have to go back and rebuild, hence my reasoning for going with the 10w7s, and possibly the 1000/1 jl slash series amp to power them as far as midbass goes, a lot of people put 8" drivers in their kickpanels, is this a no-no or whats the best way to get a good mix, remembering that i will most likely be listening to music at not ultra loud spl, but just want the available power when im at shows, cruisin or making fun of my friends who werent smart enuff to ask the experts at diyaudio.com
again thnx, oh and could u plz explain this bass roll off? ive seen graphs and stuff but dont completely understand
in short, money isnot going to be an issue, id rather pay more now than have to go back and rebuild, hence my reasoning for going with the 10w7s, and possibly the 1000/1 jl slash series amp to power them as far as midbass goes, a lot of people put 8" drivers in their kickpanels, is this a no-no or whats the best way to get a good mix, remembering that i will most likely be listening to music at not ultra loud spl, but just want the available power when im at shows, cruisin or making fun of my friends who werent smart enuff to ask the experts at diyaudio.com
again thnx, oh and could u plz explain this bass roll off? ive seen graphs and stuff but dont completely understand
If you're going to do an IB install then yes you need to remove the 6x9s. If you're not doing IB then it's not necessary, but I would recommend it anyway. The front speakers are really the heart of the entire system. If you get some nice components in the front on a lot of power, you'll never even miss the rear speakers. Most people who get in my car don't realize I have no rear speakers until I tell them and they actually turn around and stick their head in the backseat. But it's not for everyone, again if you do IB with the subs then you'll need to remove the 6x9s and seal up the holes, but if you don't do IB then you could leave the 6x9s in there and just fade them out to see how you like it. Whichever you do, I would definitely recommend some nice components in the front on a lot of power.
8's in the kicks is an alright idea, but there are a few issues. First is that the kicks will be gigantic. Second is that if you use an 8" midbass, chances are you'll need a midrange and have to go with a 3-way setup up front (not always the case, but most of the time it's true). If you go with a 3-way setup, it would be a much better idea to put the midrange in the kicks where you can get the aiming right and put the midbass in the doors where the aiming doesn't really matter, provided you can fit 8's in your doors.
You could also go with some very high output 6.5s instead. There are only a few that I know of, and unfortunately they all have a very deep mounting depth, which might cause problems with window travel if you put them in the doors. Also, none of them are available as a component set, you can only get the midbass and then you'd have to get a seperate tweeter and either design/build a passive crossover or buy a 4ch amp and go active. Either way, they're the Adire Extremis and Resonant Engineering XXX. The Elemental Designs eu700 would fit under this category too, but it can't play above 1khz so you couldn't really use it in a 2-way setup.
About the rolloff, if you had a sub with a very high rolloff it would have almost no low end. If you played a sine sweep (sine wave that starts at a high frequency and gradually decreases), at first you would have a lot of output. As the frequency dropped, the output would stay about the same, until you hit maybe 50hz and the sub would start to get quieter and quieter. By the time you got to 30-40hz it would be very quiet, and if you played music this range would be completely missing. If you had a sub with a very low rolloff, the output would stay roughly constant until you got to a much lower frequency, and then the output would drop off. The point where the output begins to drop off depends on the box size and the parameters of the sub, the Fs being one of the more important parameters.
Though most decent subs should have a low enough Fs where, once cabin gain is factored in, will allow you to have a flat response into the teens if you give them a proper sized sealed box. This definitely isn't a problem with most 12s and 15s, some 10s have a problem with low end and many 8s have a big problem with low end.
8's in the kicks is an alright idea, but there are a few issues. First is that the kicks will be gigantic. Second is that if you use an 8" midbass, chances are you'll need a midrange and have to go with a 3-way setup up front (not always the case, but most of the time it's true). If you go with a 3-way setup, it would be a much better idea to put the midrange in the kicks where you can get the aiming right and put the midbass in the doors where the aiming doesn't really matter, provided you can fit 8's in your doors.
You could also go with some very high output 6.5s instead. There are only a few that I know of, and unfortunately they all have a very deep mounting depth, which might cause problems with window travel if you put them in the doors. Also, none of them are available as a component set, you can only get the midbass and then you'd have to get a seperate tweeter and either design/build a passive crossover or buy a 4ch amp and go active. Either way, they're the Adire Extremis and Resonant Engineering XXX. The Elemental Designs eu700 would fit under this category too, but it can't play above 1khz so you couldn't really use it in a 2-way setup.
About the rolloff, if you had a sub with a very high rolloff it would have almost no low end. If you played a sine sweep (sine wave that starts at a high frequency and gradually decreases), at first you would have a lot of output. As the frequency dropped, the output would stay about the same, until you hit maybe 50hz and the sub would start to get quieter and quieter. By the time you got to 30-40hz it would be very quiet, and if you played music this range would be completely missing. If you had a sub with a very low rolloff, the output would stay roughly constant until you got to a much lower frequency, and then the output would drop off. The point where the output begins to drop off depends on the box size and the parameters of the sub, the Fs being one of the more important parameters.
Though most decent subs should have a low enough Fs where, once cabin gain is factored in, will allow you to have a flat response into the teens if you give them a proper sized sealed box. This definitely isn't a problem with most 12s and 15s, some 10s have a problem with low end and many 8s have a big problem with low end.
first question IB? sorry dont know terms yet
and im sure ill think of more when they come to me....
thnx again
and im sure ill think of more when they come to me....
thnx again
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