E0045-08S W22NY001
H1471-08 CA22RNY
I'm Looking to update my Troels Gravesen 3wc MK.I to the MK.II. While having difficulty obtaining the prestige model the Excel unit is available.
The only difference I see is the average voice coil inductance is higher for the Prestige. However, looking at the impedance graph the real difference takes place above the intended frequency range.
In looking at these two woofers would you consider them interchangeable with regards to crossover since their parameters are nearly identical?
Would the Excel sound better do you think?
H1471-08 CA22RNY
I'm Looking to update my Troels Gravesen 3wc MK.I to the MK.II. While having difficulty obtaining the prestige model the Excel unit is available.
The only difference I see is the average voice coil inductance is higher for the Prestige. However, looking at the impedance graph the real difference takes place above the intended frequency range.
In looking at these two woofers would you consider them interchangeable with regards to crossover since their parameters are nearly identical?
Would the Excel sound better do you think?
Hi,
They are very near interchange as woofers in a 3 way.
The Excel should be better with the extra copper rings
and to a lesser extent the extra +/- 1mm of excursion.
rgds, sreten.
They are very near interchange as woofers in a 3 way.
The Excel should be better with the extra copper rings
and to a lesser extent the extra +/- 1mm of excursion.
rgds, sreten.
Thanks SReten
What sonic advantage do you think would be associated with the Nextel? Lower distortion?
I noticed lower the extra mm in xmax but also a 10% reduction in Sd.
What sonic advantage do you think would be associated with the Nextel? Lower distortion?
I noticed lower the extra mm in xmax but also a 10% reduction in Sd.
Why not ask Troels, directly. He stays current with available drivers. He might even offer direction if changes should be made to the crossover.
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Troels says that he doesn't know, however I think his proclivity is to say build it like is or you're on your own. If I was him I don't know if i'd take the time to help other people modify a product I was marketing either. So this is me being "on my own".
I'd like to replace the Prestige Bass driver with something a bit cleaner in the low end. After further research I dont believe the Nextel unit will be much better in the bass section. There may be some gain in midrange quality.
Is there a real issue with the mk1 that you'd like changed or you're
just being curious how it would have sounded if you upgraded it to mk2?
just being curious how it would have sounded if you upgraded it to mk2?
Are you intending to rebuild your Classics completely as a Mk II, or are you just going to replace the woofer? You should be aware that Troels designs his speakers very much as complete systems, and that includes crossovers, box tuning and baffle dimensions. He chose the new woofer mainly because it is 1-2 dB more sensitive than the old one, and completely redesigned the crossover, partly to rebalance the output and partly to change the mid-treble crossover to second order.
Are you going to use the Mk II crossover? If so, you will also need to make a new baffle with a 19mm step to time-align the tweeter and midrange.
Alex
Are you going to use the Mk II crossover? If so, you will also need to make a new baffle with a 19mm step to time-align the tweeter and midrange.
Alex
First off I'm alittle bothered by the snappiness of the MK.I. Also, I think the bass definition could be better which I believe it might become with the use of ca22RNY or a substitute.
No, in this case a complete new box is required, as the baffle dimensions are different (300x550 vs 280x600 mm).
Plus, counting the new crossover components, and new bass drivers, I'm unsure this "upgrade" is worth the money. IMHO it's a sidegrade with lots of cash involved, I'd rather do something completely different.
Ralf
I doubt 20mm difference in width is going to affect the sound all that much. Besides I constructed the cabinet to MK.II spec with this upgrade in mind. I would have to add a stepped baffle.
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I'm intending on a comprehensive rebuild. Due to the lacking availability of ca22rny I was originally contemplating on replacing the prestige unit with seas own Nextel since their response curves and t/s parameters are nearly identical. I was curious to see people's opinion on the subject of interchangeability but also viability since I'm starting to get the impression that Nextel isn't considerably better.
In Troels' words, the "slight snappiness/aggressiveness" is due to the mkI's 2nd/3rd order mid/tweeter crossover, so replacing the bass unit won't cure it. In the case of my Mk IIs, the bass definition was highly sensitive to placing in the room.
Alex
Right, that's why I'm upgrading to mk2 I'm the first place. The question is since I'm purchasing new woofers anyway and the RNY isn't available locally could I use the Nextel and would it be better.
Where do you live? The CA22RNY is very much a current model, and is widely available in Europe and North America.
Alex
It's not only the baffle dimensions, but also where the drivers are located. If you don't trust me, download some diffraction simulator (Baffle Diffraction Simulator, Frequency Response Modeler, just to name a couple), and have a look. But if you built the MkII enclosure then go for the MkII, and your only (real) difference IMHO is in the bass as the RNY is a better suited driver than the RNX for the small classic cab. The Excel works the same as the RNY in this cab with a 1dB penalty that you should correct in the mid+tweeter crossover part (higher series resistors).
Ralf
Ralf
I wasn't familiar with those programs. Thanks, I'll take a look just to play around. I'll make sure to place the drivers as designed.
So can we conclude that any woofer with a similar response curve would be interchangeable from a crossover perspective?
If a design calls for driver A and you want to use driver B instead those rules apply:
1) if it's a tweeter you have to find a driver with very similar FR, impedance profile and also sensitivity (in the working range),
2) if it's a woofer you also need to have very similar Vas, Qts and Fs.
Rule 1 is for the crossover to work as designed, rule 2 is for the bass tuning to work as designed. IME in a vented design finding an equivalent woofer is quite impossible, your case is a lucky exception as the only visible difference is 1dB of sensitivity, easily correctable bringing down 1dB both mid+tweeter.
Ralf
1) if it's a tweeter you have to find a driver with very similar FR, impedance profile and also sensitivity (in the working range),
2) if it's a woofer you also need to have very similar Vas, Qts and Fs.
Rule 1 is for the crossover to work as designed, rule 2 is for the bass tuning to work as designed. IME in a vented design finding an equivalent woofer is quite impossible, your case is a lucky exception as the only visible difference is 1dB of sensitivity, easily correctable bringing down 1dB both mid+tweeter.
Ralf
so we agree that only impedance and FR curves matter in the question of crossover compatibility cabinet tuning notwithstanding. Thanks.
I've only found them at solen Canada. I've inquired with Jantzen to see how much shipping would be on a pair of RNYs. We will see what the cheaper option is.
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