hello,
my name is jc and have just subcribed to your BB. i have been building and working in the audio business for some time. my area of expertise is concerning vacuum tubes and their applications. i am currently the senior engineer at new sensor corp. which is now the world's largest manufacturer of commercial vacuum tubes. i can probably answer a few questions about how they work and how they're made. but, i hope to enjoy myself here and have nothing to say about my company or any business matters at all (please don't ask, so i don't have to be impolite). i am interested in what folks are making and doing with tubes...
thanks for having me!
jc
my name is jc and have just subcribed to your BB. i have been building and working in the audio business for some time. my area of expertise is concerning vacuum tubes and their applications. i am currently the senior engineer at new sensor corp. which is now the world's largest manufacturer of commercial vacuum tubes. i can probably answer a few questions about how they work and how they're made. but, i hope to enjoy myself here and have nothing to say about my company or any business matters at all (please don't ask, so i don't have to be impolite). i am interested in what folks are making and doing with tubes...
thanks for having me!
jc
Delighted to see you participate. There are a lot of tube enthusiasts (I'm one) doing all sorts of interesting things here. You won't be bored.
And I promise not to ask about business things, but don't hesitate to respond to questions on the tech end of things if you feel comfortable doing so. We've got a lot of industry participants who by and large do an excellent job of not mixing business with pleasure.
And I promise not to ask about business things, but don't hesitate to respond to questions on the tech end of things if you feel comfortable doing so. We've got a lot of industry participants who by and large do an excellent job of not mixing business with pleasure.
like i said... no business. i am very fortunately completely uninvolved with sales and cannot make any arrangements. i do engineering, analysis and design stuff there... if you want to get a group of people together to do a group wholesale purchase, i'll be happy to hook you up with the appropriate salesperson to discuss it. but i can't get you any tubes. on the other hand, if you keep blowing up your pricy 6550s or 2A3s in your homebrew amp and think its the tubes, i'll be happy to try and help you figure out what you're doing wrong...
jc
jc
Hi nanana,
If you'll note the winking emoticon, I was teasing you.
I don't even own any tube equipment.
Glad to have you aboard
Cal
If you'll note the winking emoticon, I was teasing you.
I don't even own any tube equipment.
Glad to have you aboard
Cal
hey man,
sorry for the lack of humor... i get the squeeze for stuff all the time and my reaction is like a reflex at this point. and i am not so with it when it comes to smilies and abbreviated email-speak. it took me a few years to figure out LOL and FWIW, and AFAIK... on the other hand, you have no tube gear at all! well, that is something that might need to be looked at my dear...
your,
jc
sorry for the lack of humor... i get the squeeze for stuff all the time and my reaction is like a reflex at this point. and i am not so with it when it comes to smilies and abbreviated email-speak. it took me a few years to figure out LOL and FWIW, and AFAIK... on the other hand, you have no tube gear at all! well, that is something that might need to be looked at my dear...
your,
jc
Welcome jc. Good to see more Joe's
Cal... don't you mean yet?
Maybe a nice little SE amp to drive those alnico 4" 🙂
dave
Cal Weldon said:
Cal... don't you mean yet?
Maybe a nice little SE amp to drive those alnico 4" 🙂
dave
nanana said:
Hang on......the largest uummmmm ?
can you elaborate the range of commercial vacuum tubes you claim ? Note... some of us' been using vacuum tubes for a very long time and we naturally get very inquisitive and mighty curious to such new info coming through.....as we love our tubes so much. I thought the Chinese now were the largest manu's.
rich
hey rich,
new sensor corp., which is owned by mike matthews, owns five businesses. sovtek (a brand), svetlana (a brand), electroharmonix (a brand), expopul, (a russian import/export), and a majority share in a tube factory in central Russia called Reflektor (it used to make mirror glass). there was once 6 big tube factories in the former USSR but now there is barely 3. the reflektor factory specialized in smaller military and industrial tubes. SED in st. petersburg (used to make cigarettes), specialized in big tubes and military RF/radar stuff. And Kaluga, which made commercial tubes. all of these factories make a fraction of what they once did but reflektor produces much much more than the other two. new sensor corp. has 42 different tubes in current production (it pays for all tooling and materials costs as well as labor). it also buys surplus on the open market. the total number of tubes produced last year was in the 600,000 range. new sensor probably has about 60-65% of the world tube market at this point, although the chinese are trying to make a comeback and probably will eat some of that up if they can produce a cheap reliable 12AX7 and 6L6GC again, they could give russia a beating. the standard of living in russia is climbing and the cost of making tubes will go only up there.
shuguang almost went out of the tube business about 7 years ago and much of the tooling actually wound up sitting outdoors. they had about 30% at one point, new sensor had about 30% and eveyone else made up the rest. mismanagement and the asian banking crisis almost killed them. the only other big factory that had been a player, SED, is in trouble now and i will be impressed if they survive the next few years. this is unfortunate for the whole business as the competition between all these factories improved the quality over the last 10 years. the yugoslavian war/crisis killed EI, the asian collapse really hurt shuguang's tube business (they make many other things), and the breakup of the USSR really changed everything that made it an industrial power.
please remember that the primary business for commercial tubes today is not the hifi business. its the musical instrument business. i don't know the exact numbers, but i would be surprised if the total world hifi consumption of tubes is 10% of the business. i think its more like 6%. if you don't make a cheap quiet high gain 12AX7 (neither distortion specs or life span matter), you aren't really in the tube business. you are a boutique operator. 6L6's and EL-34's are next, and then 6550's. those tubes make up almost the entire tube industry at this point. this may be sad but it is also true.
anyway, that new sensor is biggest, is not an exaggeration at all... and it is primarily only because it is the only large player left on the field. it may be that as the cost of doing business increases in russia, the primary tubes will be priced out of existence there? leaving china probably the last large scale home of tube manufacture until tubes fade away altogether. EI is in big trouble but staggering along. JJ is doing OK. they do not produce anything near the quantity or the range of different tube types as reflektor. new sensor does make tubes for specialty markets... there is a EF806 and a 6386 in development for the pro audio world (mics and compressors). it already makes 2A3s and 300Bs, good ones i might add, for the hifi market. the complete 12A_7 range. the 7591 and KT-90 were made to cover ampeg amp owners (of which there are more than dynaco owners) and manley. not really for hifi, although they are sold to both markets. and there are 6922, 6SN7 and 6CG7 and soon even a 6AQ8. there are also the cool russian tubes like 6C45P and 6H30, both reflektor tubes, not SED. (the 6N1P was made at SED...). rectifiers 5U4, 5AR4, 6CA4, 5Y3, 5Y4, all in CURRENT production. there isn't any other company in a position to do this. there may be one day again? but not at the moment.
jc
new sensor corp., which is owned by mike matthews, owns five businesses. sovtek (a brand), svetlana (a brand), electroharmonix (a brand), expopul, (a russian import/export), and a majority share in a tube factory in central Russia called Reflektor (it used to make mirror glass). there was once 6 big tube factories in the former USSR but now there is barely 3. the reflektor factory specialized in smaller military and industrial tubes. SED in st. petersburg (used to make cigarettes), specialized in big tubes and military RF/radar stuff. And Kaluga, which made commercial tubes. all of these factories make a fraction of what they once did but reflektor produces much much more than the other two. new sensor corp. has 42 different tubes in current production (it pays for all tooling and materials costs as well as labor). it also buys surplus on the open market. the total number of tubes produced last year was in the 600,000 range. new sensor probably has about 60-65% of the world tube market at this point, although the chinese are trying to make a comeback and probably will eat some of that up if they can produce a cheap reliable 12AX7 and 6L6GC again, they could give russia a beating. the standard of living in russia is climbing and the cost of making tubes will go only up there.
shuguang almost went out of the tube business about 7 years ago and much of the tooling actually wound up sitting outdoors. they had about 30% at one point, new sensor had about 30% and eveyone else made up the rest. mismanagement and the asian banking crisis almost killed them. the only other big factory that had been a player, SED, is in trouble now and i will be impressed if they survive the next few years. this is unfortunate for the whole business as the competition between all these factories improved the quality over the last 10 years. the yugoslavian war/crisis killed EI, the asian collapse really hurt shuguang's tube business (they make many other things), and the breakup of the USSR really changed everything that made it an industrial power.
please remember that the primary business for commercial tubes today is not the hifi business. its the musical instrument business. i don't know the exact numbers, but i would be surprised if the total world hifi consumption of tubes is 10% of the business. i think its more like 6%. if you don't make a cheap quiet high gain 12AX7 (neither distortion specs or life span matter), you aren't really in the tube business. you are a boutique operator. 6L6's and EL-34's are next, and then 6550's. those tubes make up almost the entire tube industry at this point. this may be sad but it is also true.
anyway, that new sensor is biggest, is not an exaggeration at all... and it is primarily only because it is the only large player left on the field. it may be that as the cost of doing business increases in russia, the primary tubes will be priced out of existence there? leaving china probably the last large scale home of tube manufacture until tubes fade away altogether. EI is in big trouble but staggering along. JJ is doing OK. they do not produce anything near the quantity or the range of different tube types as reflektor. new sensor does make tubes for specialty markets... there is a EF806 and a 6386 in development for the pro audio world (mics and compressors). it already makes 2A3s and 300Bs, good ones i might add, for the hifi market. the complete 12A_7 range. the 7591 and KT-90 were made to cover ampeg amp owners (of which there are more than dynaco owners) and manley. not really for hifi, although they are sold to both markets. and there are 6922, 6SN7 and 6CG7 and soon even a 6AQ8. there are also the cool russian tubes like 6C45P and 6H30, both reflektor tubes, not SED. (the 6N1P was made at SED...). rectifiers 5U4, 5AR4, 6CA4, 5Y3, 5Y4, all in CURRENT production. there isn't any other company in a position to do this. there may be one day again? but not at the moment.
jc
hey rich, i forgot one thing...
new sensor also has a factory in new york city where the sound efffects and pro-audio stuff is made... this is where the "Big Muff" and the "Black Finger is made, among many other noise makers...
we have a mix of digital and analog musical gadgets that are either loved or hated in the rock and roll business. there are very few modern musicians who do not own or has owned at least one of our things. there are about 65 employees of which 4 are engineers. i am one.
happy holidays!
jc
new sensor also has a factory in new york city where the sound efffects and pro-audio stuff is made... this is where the "Big Muff" and the "Black Finger is made, among many other noise makers...
we have a mix of digital and analog musical gadgets that are either loved or hated in the rock and roll business. there are very few modern musicians who do not own or has owned at least one of our things. there are about 65 employees of which 4 are engineers. i am one.
happy holidays!
jc
Hey, thanks for the rundown on tube industrie nanana, i actually found it interesting! 😀
getting a general perspective on things always feel nice.
yours
marius
getting a general perspective on things always feel nice.
yours
marius
Hi there......My recent remarks about the poor quality EI KT90 reliability on my lot was well down with a host of troubles...It should make someone from that company sit up and take notice...if they want a reputation. I certainly won't purchase their tubes anymore.
Have you come across Pentalabs, Chatsworth, California. Any record on them ?
rich
Have you come across Pentalabs, Chatsworth, California. Any record on them ?
rich
hey rich,
i see you are something of an idealist! ("It should make someone from that company sit up and take notice...") i hope you get a chance to test some of the KT-90 EH's...
penta labs was a "re-brander" (i really hate that term... as it doesn't mean or say anything anymore) of chinese tubes... i believe they are still operating but i haven't heard much (good or bad) for some time? there is a business of small companies that test and resell tubes (that is how new sensor came to be...) and they were one of the first to deal in the chinese tubes. they tried to keep a broad inventory... not just 6L6's in other words. during the 70's and 80's, companies like CETRON (chicago electric), which actually had made tubes in the past (and great ones too!), began to buy tubes on the open market and sell them under their own name. this is because all tube factories in the US closed down or switched to making something else. even tubes needed by the US military came to be purchased from anywhere and "by any means necessary", to borrow a malcom x line. this was out of necessity. national (richardson) bought cetron and became the worlds biggest distributor (they supplied US industry and the military with replacements). international, another one, was left over from the old job lots tube companies and they came into their own when GE and Sylvania (philips) shut down, in the same way richardson did. the job lots and surplus became a commodity that was fought over more and more until it dwindled to nothing. any company with a big bank account did better and it pushed most of the "little guys" out of that business pretty quick. the coup de grace for the tube business as a whole came when philips stopped making tubes... they were already buying from EI and TESLA and Tungsram (even picture tubes for TV and computers were made there until only a decade ago...). and of course thay owned more tube factories than anyone else... they owned mullard (from 1927), mazda (50 something), RFT, ediswan, amperex (early 60s), and some others too (!), and are directly responible for pushing marconi-osram out of the tube business. thats how the M-O tooling wound up in china, by the way. shuguang (chinese military) bought the job lot! philips and GE (RCA) were very similar in their business practice, which is to say brutal. philips also made the tube business a living hell for siemens and telefunken at the end and they couldn't compete either. they quit rather than lose. anyway, once philips quit the business, it became very different... actually it became what it is now.
jc
i see you are something of an idealist! ("It should make someone from that company sit up and take notice...") i hope you get a chance to test some of the KT-90 EH's...
penta labs was a "re-brander" (i really hate that term... as it doesn't mean or say anything anymore) of chinese tubes... i believe they are still operating but i haven't heard much (good or bad) for some time? there is a business of small companies that test and resell tubes (that is how new sensor came to be...) and they were one of the first to deal in the chinese tubes. they tried to keep a broad inventory... not just 6L6's in other words. during the 70's and 80's, companies like CETRON (chicago electric), which actually had made tubes in the past (and great ones too!), began to buy tubes on the open market and sell them under their own name. this is because all tube factories in the US closed down or switched to making something else. even tubes needed by the US military came to be purchased from anywhere and "by any means necessary", to borrow a malcom x line. this was out of necessity. national (richardson) bought cetron and became the worlds biggest distributor (they supplied US industry and the military with replacements). international, another one, was left over from the old job lots tube companies and they came into their own when GE and Sylvania (philips) shut down, in the same way richardson did. the job lots and surplus became a commodity that was fought over more and more until it dwindled to nothing. any company with a big bank account did better and it pushed most of the "little guys" out of that business pretty quick. the coup de grace for the tube business as a whole came when philips stopped making tubes... they were already buying from EI and TESLA and Tungsram (even picture tubes for TV and computers were made there until only a decade ago...). and of course thay owned more tube factories than anyone else... they owned mullard (from 1927), mazda (50 something), RFT, ediswan, amperex (early 60s), and some others too (!), and are directly responible for pushing marconi-osram out of the tube business. thats how the M-O tooling wound up in china, by the way. shuguang (chinese military) bought the job lot! philips and GE (RCA) were very similar in their business practice, which is to say brutal. philips also made the tube business a living hell for siemens and telefunken at the end and they couldn't compete either. they quit rather than lose. anyway, once philips quit the business, it became very different... actually it became what it is now.
jc
Hi JC,
quite enjoyable and fast reading material, nothing like a professional tuby to give the run down.
Can i read from your words that the tube industry is expected to be more stable in the coming decades, availability and penny wise ?
PS:
the energy saving tube light just went out, it reads Philips,can
you give me a quote on those tubes ?
quite enjoyable and fast reading material, nothing like a professional tuby to give the run down.
Can i read from your words that the tube industry is expected to be more stable in the coming decades, availability and penny wise ?
PS:
the energy saving tube light just went out, it reads Philips,can
you give me a quote on those tubes ?
A re-brander is my worst fears......are we really sure what we get ain't already duff.......i.e resolds from the yellow sector on the tube tester ? These days I'm mighty dubious to recons.......this business practise seems worse than those working the 2nd hand car market. However, I could be wrong that many rebrand houses do actually retest tubes before leaving works door....it's their honesty ...so far everyone has spoken of the good guys.....who's not to deal with ?
rich
Hi jc!
Sorry about that exchange over in the tube forum and welcome to diyAudio! Hope you stick around 'cause we need more people like you here at diyAudio!
Wayne
Sorry about that exchange over in the tube forum and welcome to diyAudio! Hope you stick around 'cause we need more people like you here at diyAudio!
Wayne
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