This is the DIY community, and being so, I'm sure some of you out there (myself included) have DIY'ed your own unique idea and perhaps put it to practical use, or not. But I know I myself have a few unique ideas that I'd like to make my own "intellectual property" and perhaps market to the rest of the world. I am definately a newbie to the world of patents and the such, so I need a bit of help. If there's anything anyone could contribute as to their own experiences, It would be greatly appreciated.
bass+fantastic = basstastic, BTW
bass+fantastic = basstastic, BTW
It's a good idea to start with the US Patent and Trademark site, www.uspto.gov. Nolo Press has a very helpful site and publish great books for non-lawyers.
In a nutshell, a patent is a license to sue. It'll probably run you $5-10,000 to get one, then figure half a million minimum if you ever want to enforce it.
In a nutshell, a patent is a license to sue. It'll probably run you $5-10,000 to get one, then figure half a million minimum if you ever want to enforce it.
What happens if someone wants to steal your idea but is in another country? With things being online, someone overseas might just decide to use it ...
That's just about what a patent attorney told me many years ago. "If a big company wants it, they get it."
He advised me to forget about it. If he hadn't been a friend of my brothers I'm sure he would have been glad to take my money and file a patent for me.
He advised me to forget about it. If he hadn't been a friend of my brothers I'm sure he would have been glad to take my money and file a patent for me.
Patents
Check this link from Fish & Richardson about patents. They are a big hitter re patents and have a little info on their web site. Also look at the USPTO web site mentioned above.
The answer is that you need to get a patent in each foreign country in which you want protection. Did I mention that patents are expensive, but ultra expensive in foreign countries? The translation costs alone will kill you.
On the bright side, if you get a US patent you can stop the importation of infringing goods into the U.S.
Patents and patent law are both complex topics, consult someone who knows what they are doing. You can save money in the US by getting one on your own but chances are that its scope of protection will be worthless unless you are very careful.
Check this link from Fish & Richardson about patents. They are a big hitter re patents and have a little info on their web site. Also look at the USPTO web site mentioned above.
The answer is that you need to get a patent in each foreign country in which you want protection. Did I mention that patents are expensive, but ultra expensive in foreign countries? The translation costs alone will kill you.
On the bright side, if you get a US patent you can stop the importation of infringing goods into the U.S.
Patents and patent law are both complex topics, consult someone who knows what they are doing. You can save money in the US by getting one on your own but chances are that its scope of protection will be worthless unless you are very careful.
paulspencer said:
You're SOL. If you want to use the patent system, you must be prepared to spend a LOT of money, much more than any normal idea in audio is worth.
BassAwdyO said:
So, now that we know that you aren't going to be filing any patents, what are your ideas?
Please explain!
I know of a guy in the US who has a number of patents, has a small company and has commented that the courts try to protect "the little guy," and is more positive about the patent system. Dr Earl @ www.gedlee.com
As for expensive patent attorneys, not all foreign attorneys are expensive. I would say most, except German ones, are less costly than US lawyers. It is however true that you need to hark up a translation fee for all countries you want to apply for. Try to use non US firms for patents outside the USA. I think the EPO patents makes it possible to apply for a patent in all of europe with only English required.
EPO
If you want to go through with it i would suggest you limit your self to the big markets. The cost is approximately equal in all countries no matter which size so choose the big ones. No large manufacturer would set up production for just some markets, and especially not if it is only the smaller ones, unless it is very easy to do.
Some suggest it is hard to win in court in some asian countries so you might consider skipping those.
One of the factors that needs to be considered is the renewal fee. The renewal fee is actually a substantial part of the cost of a patent, some say you even get a rebate on the application fee so that they can cash in on the renewal fees.
EPO
If you want to go through with it i would suggest you limit your self to the big markets. The cost is approximately equal in all countries no matter which size so choose the big ones. No large manufacturer would set up production for just some markets, and especially not if it is only the smaller ones, unless it is very easy to do.
Some suggest it is hard to win in court in some asian countries so you might consider skipping those.
One of the factors that needs to be considered is the renewal fee. The renewal fee is actually a substantial part of the cost of a patent, some say you even get a rebate on the application fee so that they can cash in on the renewal fees.
My employer (in Canada) has received a patent from the USPTO on something I designed for them. The process has taken 4-1/2 years and cost approx $40K in legal fees. The CIPO has yet to approve the application. That hasn't cost as much, maybe $2000. We also filed a PCT application with the EPO and that has just been approved for finalization in any of the member countries. So far that has cost around $15K in fees.
The CEO has elected to complete the PCT application in France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK. They average around $3000 each to complete, including translations. To complete in all member nations of the EPO would cost around $75K. (FYI, Sweden is the most expensive at around $12K.)
So far the total is just under $60K. The reason it is so expensive is that we have been dealing with only one local firm that has been sub-contracting to law firms in the other jurisdictions, including the USA. If we had contracted several firms, costs would be about half, but the amount of in-house wrangling would have been more than triple. I'm sure it would have been much cheaper if the patent examiners were not so diligent with digging up prior art, including one or two from Avery-Dennison. Those arguments alone probably doubled or tripled the costs.
We couldn't possibly stand up against the big office supply manufacturer so enforceability is not the goal except against similarly sized competitors. Rather, the CEO says that this is a great marketing tool (like Bose) and helps to label the company as an innovator within an industry that is largely technology free.
One last thing.... if you heed Bill Fitz and announce your idea here on this or any very public forum, you will have only one year to apply to the USPTO and have forfeited your right to patent in most other countries, including Canada, Europe, Japan, etc.
One more last thing... it is widely held that patents in China are not worth the paper they are printed on. That in fact, it is merely a way of publishing the technology for ready duplication.
Consider intellectual property as highly strategic corporate expenditures. Only the really large companies can afford to consider them as protective devices, and even then, many resort to keeping their assets as trade secrets.
🙂ensen.
The CEO has elected to complete the PCT application in France, Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK. They average around $3000 each to complete, including translations. To complete in all member nations of the EPO would cost around $75K. (FYI, Sweden is the most expensive at around $12K.)
So far the total is just under $60K. The reason it is so expensive is that we have been dealing with only one local firm that has been sub-contracting to law firms in the other jurisdictions, including the USA. If we had contracted several firms, costs would be about half, but the amount of in-house wrangling would have been more than triple. I'm sure it would have been much cheaper if the patent examiners were not so diligent with digging up prior art, including one or two from Avery-Dennison. Those arguments alone probably doubled or tripled the costs.
We couldn't possibly stand up against the big office supply manufacturer so enforceability is not the goal except against similarly sized competitors. Rather, the CEO says that this is a great marketing tool (like Bose) and helps to label the company as an innovator within an industry that is largely technology free.
One last thing.... if you heed Bill Fitz and announce your idea here on this or any very public forum, you will have only one year to apply to the USPTO and have forfeited your right to patent in most other countries, including Canada, Europe, Japan, etc.
One more last thing... it is widely held that patents in China are not worth the paper they are printed on. That in fact, it is merely a way of publishing the technology for ready duplication.
Consider intellectual property as highly strategic corporate expenditures. Only the really large companies can afford to consider them as protective devices, and even then, many resort to keeping their assets as trade secrets.
🙂ensen.
yeah, well I told you guys I was a newbie to such things. I suppose I'll just let you all in on the big secret. If you all want to steal one of my ideas, just be sure to put my name on it.
My first idea....
Spinner subwoofers. I know for you older guys you probably wouldnt see any point in it, and really I dont either, except cosmetic value. I got this idea from those spinner rims you see all over on cars nowadays. I thought, hey wouldnt it be cool if there were subwoofers that had spinning cones. You could put like a spiral on the cone and really make it look crazy.
Superconductor interconnects
I know everyone loves copper, but I think people spending $1000+ on cables alone are crazy. Someone else had to think of this.... Zero resistance, who wouldnt want to use it.
Superconductive voice coils
Now this could get a bit impractical due to the fact that even the best superconductors today require to be cooled to liquid nitrogen temperature, but I'm sure it will be possible one day.
Superconductive Motors.
I dont know exactly how well this might work, but reading about the meissner effect really got me thinking. Superconductors, for some reason( I only have a slight concept of why) create a magnetic feild to counteract any magnetic feild presented to them. If you have a superconductor and a rare earth magnet, the magnet will levatate above the superconductor due to this. I figure we could achieve some insane flux in a gap if we use superconductors to concentrate all of the magnetic energy. Not only that, but the strongest dipole magnet ever created was made using superconductors. Imagine having to plug your subwoofer driver into the outlet!
ServoPort
A telescoping port connected to a servomotor and remote that allows you to remotely change the tuning of the enclosure, and quickly I might add.
I know I've had quite a few more ideas, but those were all I could think of. What do you guys think?
My first idea....
Spinner subwoofers. I know for you older guys you probably wouldnt see any point in it, and really I dont either, except cosmetic value. I got this idea from those spinner rims you see all over on cars nowadays. I thought, hey wouldnt it be cool if there were subwoofers that had spinning cones. You could put like a spiral on the cone and really make it look crazy.
Superconductor interconnects
I know everyone loves copper, but I think people spending $1000+ on cables alone are crazy. Someone else had to think of this.... Zero resistance, who wouldnt want to use it.
Superconductive voice coils
Now this could get a bit impractical due to the fact that even the best superconductors today require to be cooled to liquid nitrogen temperature, but I'm sure it will be possible one day.
Superconductive Motors.
I dont know exactly how well this might work, but reading about the meissner effect really got me thinking. Superconductors, for some reason( I only have a slight concept of why) create a magnetic feild to counteract any magnetic feild presented to them. If you have a superconductor and a rare earth magnet, the magnet will levatate above the superconductor due to this. I figure we could achieve some insane flux in a gap if we use superconductors to concentrate all of the magnetic energy. Not only that, but the strongest dipole magnet ever created was made using superconductors. Imagine having to plug your subwoofer driver into the outlet!
ServoPort
A telescoping port connected to a servomotor and remote that allows you to remotely change the tuning of the enclosure, and quickly I might add.
I know I've had quite a few more ideas, but those were all I could think of. What do you guys think?
Not much there that will make an enforceable utility patent, I'd guess, though if you could figure out how to actually make a spinning cone, that could potentially get through. People have been bandying the superconductive stuff around for decades (often as a joke), so nothing novel there.
Well, now you know of another guy in the US who has a number of patents, has a small company, and has been nearly taken to bankruptcy several times trying to pay lawyers. The patent system is fine as long as you have a lawyer and can pay him, and as long as you can gat through the expensive hurdles that the EU puts out to discourage individual inventors. All it takes is piles of money.
Well, now you know of another guy in the US who has a number of patents, has a small company, and has been nearly taken to bankruptcy several times trying to pay lawyers. The patent system is fine as long as you have a lawyer and can pay him, and as long as you can gat through the expensive hurdles that the EU puts out to discourage individual inventors. All it takes is piles of money.
I have some experience with trying to get patents.
First off I wouldn't go with a company that assists you because I got screwed by one about 10 years ago (they were sued by the FTC and all I got back was 1K vs. the 6K I spent). Though others my be ok. There are also groups that can help out (I get a newsletter from one group here in Minnesota).
Anywho...
I found a good patent attorney.
One thing you can do (in the US) is draft up as detailed a discription as possible including drawings, etc., and mail it to yourself. Don't open it (of course). That provides an intellectual inception date via the post mark and provides albeit minimal protection while you begin the patent process.
Also you can save a ton of money be doing the patent search yourself. All applications to the US patent office require a search and any "close" patents to be listed with said application. You save money because it's time consumming. When I lived in Minneapolis the main library had all the patents on microfilm, so i was able to search there. I don't no if you live in a large metropolitan area so use the website of the US copyright and patent office for searching.
There are also a lot of good book available. I have Patent It Youself by david Pressman (NOLO).
Good Luck.
First off I wouldn't go with a company that assists you because I got screwed by one about 10 years ago (they were sued by the FTC and all I got back was 1K vs. the 6K I spent). Though others my be ok. There are also groups that can help out (I get a newsletter from one group here in Minnesota).
Anywho...
I found a good patent attorney.
One thing you can do (in the US) is draft up as detailed a discription as possible including drawings, etc., and mail it to yourself. Don't open it (of course). That provides an intellectual inception date via the post mark and provides albeit minimal protection while you begin the patent process.
Also you can save a ton of money be doing the patent search yourself. All applications to the US patent office require a search and any "close" patents to be listed with said application. You save money because it's time consumming. When I lived in Minneapolis the main library had all the patents on microfilm, so i was able to search there. I don't no if you live in a large metropolitan area so use the website of the US copyright and patent office for searching.
There are also a lot of good book available. I have Patent It Youself by david Pressman (NOLO).
Good Luck.
Also if you really want to patent anything... TELL NO ONE WHAT YOUR IDEA IS! EVER!
http://www.ustpo.gov/patft/index.html
http://www.delphion.com
above are sites for free patent searching.
http://www.ustpo.gov/patft/index.html
http://www.delphion.com
above are sites for free patent searching.
Don't bother with a patent. Get a copyright, which gives you protection at minimal cost, and primarily serves to prove that you had the idea first should someone else try to patent the idea later. Publishing is the best way to do that.
As for IP theft, if someone in the Far East does so you can't do anything about it anyway. In the US no manufacturer is likely to mess with your ideas as to do so would be an admission that you've come up with something that their in house engineers couldn't. Except Bose maybe, a company known for patenting concepts long in circulation. If your idea's really good and a US company wants to have it let them do the patenting process as assignee's, and hold out for a percentage of the gross sales; don't sell your rights for a flat fee.
As for IP theft, if someone in the Far East does so you can't do anything about it anyway. In the US no manufacturer is likely to mess with your ideas as to do so would be an admission that you've come up with something that their in house engineers couldn't. Except Bose maybe, a company known for patenting concepts long in circulation. If your idea's really good and a US company wants to have it let them do the patenting process as assignee's, and hold out for a percentage of the gross sales; don't sell your rights for a flat fee.
cyclone isnt exactly what I had in mind for a spinner subwoofer. They use a servo motor, I'd use a moving coil configuration. Why have superconductors been talked about jokingly?
In addition to the USPTO's website, I would also look at
http://www.patentcafe.com/
There are a lot of pro's and con's about the advice you have already received. The downside of a copyright, is that it only protects you from an exact copy of what you got copyrighted. That's not true for a patent where you should get much broader coverage of protection than for a copyright. Also, if you also have to be concerned with the timeframe as you are expected to follow due diligence in filing an application once you have the idea reduced to practice. Getting a copyright might provide a date by which your idea might have been shown to be reduced to practice. Otherwise, your patent if granted could be held invalid in court. Plus there are lots of other ways a patent could be held invalid in court if challenged by a big corporation.
You need to weigh for yourself why you want a patent. Lots of people have good ideas but then they realize its been done before or its not worth the cost. If it were for good business reasons, then I would not skimp on it.
http://www.patentcafe.com/
There are a lot of pro's and con's about the advice you have already received. The downside of a copyright, is that it only protects you from an exact copy of what you got copyrighted. That's not true for a patent where you should get much broader coverage of protection than for a copyright. Also, if you also have to be concerned with the timeframe as you are expected to follow due diligence in filing an application once you have the idea reduced to practice. Getting a copyright might provide a date by which your idea might have been shown to be reduced to practice. Otherwise, your patent if granted could be held invalid in court. Plus there are lots of other ways a patent could be held invalid in court if challenged by a big corporation.
You need to weigh for yourself why you want a patent. Lots of people have good ideas but then they realize its been done before or its not worth the cost. If it were for good business reasons, then I would not skimp on it.
One example, April's fool from German Mag Hobbyhifi (In German only unfortunately):
http://www.hobbyhifi.de/Archiv/04/03_04/SLMS/Die_Story/die_story.html
Regards
Charles
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