Does anyone built or heard the SEAS kit: Trym?
Trym
How about the sound?
Compare to the Proac 2.5 clone, Troel's TJL , which one is better?
Trym
How about the sound?
Compare to the Proac 2.5 clone, Troel's TJL , which one is better?
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but, gee, that's an ugly speaker. It's huge (34L) for a bookshelf, and if you're going to put in to a stand, then I'd choose Troels' TJL.
This one's the winner IMHO. Troels is a meticulous guy and I'm absolutely confident with his designs.
I've already committed to building it, but with limited funds and another project under way (NaO), it will take awhile.
This one's the winner IMHO. Troels is a meticulous guy and I'm absolutely confident with his designs.
I've already committed to building it, but with limited funds and another project under way (NaO), it will take awhile.
Thanks, Tktran
I am very impress with TJL but worry about the next couple year.
The Trym can be upgrade to Linkwitz's ORION if needed. With TJL, it would ended. The thing I woory is "Does the TJL could produce enough bass for rock music?" (not heavey metal but something like the Eagle)
I am very impress with TJL but worry about the next couple year.
The Trym can be upgrade to Linkwitz's ORION if needed. With TJL, it would ended. The thing I woory is "Does the TJL could produce enough bass for rock music?" (not heavey metal but something like the Eagle)
First, I am making comments without hearing the Trym (I have heard something similar to the TJL, though), so my experience is limited. However, even though the Trym x-over is at 1600Hz, it still bothers me to have a 22cm driver working as a midrange. The W18 used in the TJL would be much better, I think, but certainly without the same bass extension. I listened to a model similar to the TJL, but using the Excel tweeter used in the Trym, and it was very nice.
If you are in Bkk, you may want to go to Absolute Audio, on Sukhumwit Soi 23. They are mainly a car stereo installer, but they have several Seas models on display that you can listen to, so you can hear it before hand.
By the way, do you make your cabinets yourself, or do you have them made? I am looking for someone to make some cabinets for me, and would appreciate any recommendations.
If you are in Bkk, you may want to go to Absolute Audio, on Sukhumwit Soi 23. They are mainly a car stereo installer, but they have several Seas models on display that you can listen to, so you can hear it before hand.
By the way, do you make your cabinets yourself, or do you have them made? I am looking for someone to make some cabinets for me, and would appreciate any recommendations.
Linkwitz uses the same construction with his Orion speakers. But the x-over is at 1400 Hz, which is lower then the Trym speakers. So I don't think there wil be a problem with the Millenium-W22 combo.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
Santi,
I questioned Troels about the bass issue too. In retrospect I ask too many questions, because it is very difficult to answer whether something has "enough" bass, because everyone has a different reference.
However in my own experience I've found that bass response is strongly dependant on the size of the room and particularly placement proximity to walls.
Obviously Troels doesn't like to sing about his own designs, but I read between the lines. I've got a Response 2.5 clones, and for any 2-way to have "bass comparable to the 2.5 clone and a more moderate sized cabinet", and "appear to match the 2.5 clone [but] being less boomy," well, that's enough for me...
I questioned Troels about the bass issue too. In retrospect I ask too many questions, because it is very difficult to answer whether something has "enough" bass, because everyone has a different reference.
However in my own experience I've found that bass response is strongly dependant on the size of the room and particularly placement proximity to walls.
Obviously Troels doesn't like to sing about his own designs, but I read between the lines. I've got a Response 2.5 clones, and for any 2-way to have "bass comparable to the 2.5 clone and a more moderate sized cabinet", and "appear to match the 2.5 clone [but] being less boomy," well, that's enough for me...
ChriSka said:
But that is just the point. He isn't taking the W22 up very high, even lower than the Trym, plus he has (effectively) a subwoofer operating below it. I don't doubt the Millenium's capability, but I do doubt the W22's capability to go much higher than 1400 Hz without having problems, either direct or off axis. 22cm is big to be playing so high.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
I've never heard the Orions, but have read posts from people who have questioned the use of such a driver all the way up to 1400Hz. Linkwitz himself says that "the driver should ideally only be used below 1 kHz." but to stitch it to the tweeter he takes it several semitones higher to 1.4Khz. Now this is probably on the low side for the T25CF002.
I came across this today:
http://www.mfk-projects.com/orio_n.htm
and some quantitative measurements of the W22EX001:
http://www.mfk-projects.com/dayton_rs.htm
These measurements seem consistent with Linkwitz's own measurements, after which he noted (Note 2: of this link that "it's hard to find low distortion driver than can cover 500Hz to 3Khz", in the context of a driver suitable for his particular application (3-way only, and with enough displacement for dipole operation)
It an likelihood the Orion is a very good speaker, but let's not kid ourselves in this hobby. It's not the perfect speaker, and, at least for me, not likely to be the "Build your last loudspeaker yourself !!" project.
Like all other speakers, compromises had to be made...
I came across this today:
http://www.mfk-projects.com/orio_n.htm
and some quantitative measurements of the W22EX001:
http://www.mfk-projects.com/dayton_rs.htm
These measurements seem consistent with Linkwitz's own measurements, after which he noted (Note 2: of this link that "it's hard to find low distortion driver than can cover 500Hz to 3Khz", in the context of a driver suitable for his particular application (3-way only, and with enough displacement for dipole operation)
It an likelihood the Orion is a very good speaker, but let's not kid ourselves in this hobby. It's not the perfect speaker, and, at least for me, not likely to be the "Build your last loudspeaker yourself !!" project.
Like all other speakers, compromises had to be made...
Thanks All,
For your discussion, there are lots of useful information.
For the W22EX001, I believe it could match any tweeter well. The frequency response graph shows that it closely to the W18E001 at the upper, plus more extension at the lower.
How about the idea?
-- Enlarge the TJL cabinet from 24 liter to 34 liter.
-- Use W22EX001 substitute to W18E001.
-- Tune port for lower bass. (28Hz)
The good news, JP3 is now 60.75 US$ (from 81 US$) at madisound.
Sbolin,
I live in Bangkok. I am not sure to build my own cabinet or order a speaker shop. Also I have a plan to buy some tools to DIY furniture. I think it must be ugly furniture but I love to. If you are finding someone to build cabinet, do you ever contact XAV (www.xav.co.th)? They could make a very nice one for you.
For your discussion, there are lots of useful information.
For the W22EX001, I believe it could match any tweeter well. The frequency response graph shows that it closely to the W18E001 at the upper, plus more extension at the lower.
How about the idea?
-- Enlarge the TJL cabinet from 24 liter to 34 liter.
-- Use W22EX001 substitute to W18E001.
-- Tune port for lower bass. (28Hz)
The good news, JP3 is now 60.75 US$ (from 81 US$) at madisound.
Sbolin,
I live in Bangkok. I am not sure to build my own cabinet or order a speaker shop. Also I have a plan to buy some tools to DIY furniture. I think it must be ugly furniture but I love to. If you are finding someone to build cabinet, do you ever contact XAV (www.xav.co.th)? They could make a very nice one for you.
santi said:
I am sure the W22 will sound great. It is just that it doesn't get much more on the low end than the W18, and has definite problems above 1kHz - distortion really starts to rise. But still, should be very nice. The JP2 and JP3 at Madisound are very tempting, I wish I had a use for them (I have bought everything I need at the moment, but still...)
Where is XAV? I can't get the website to work (it doesn't exist?). I would like to contact them about the cabinets.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
santi,
I'm not sure what your'e saying? It seems you want to marry the TJL to the Trym. I think this is a bad idea.
Looking at the Seas data sheets (but can't always trust them) in terms of harmonic distortion analysis perhaps the W18E001 and W22EX are similar in the sense of higher 3rd order harmonics past 1.5Khz due to cone breakup, and hence ideally both should be used below this point. But the 8" W22EX001 starts to beam around 2Khz, whereas the 7" W18E001 still shows good dispersion an octave above this, (compare their 30 degrees off axis response at 3-4Khz and 60 degrees off axis at 3Khz)
The W22EX will have more low end output because it has greater volume displacement due to 70% greater cone area and 1dB sensitivity, higher Qt and probably some other factors too that I haven't noticed. Troels uses the W22EX as a woofer in a larger box in his hybrid dipole 3-way Acapella SE. Louder, better bass than the W18E which acts as a midbass in his 2 way TJL...
-- 34L is too large for the W18E001.
-- Substituting the W22EX-001 will require complete crossover redesign.
-- See above, but I modelled a 28Hz tuning in a 34L cabinet for the W18E001 anyway and it yes it does goes lower. I haven't looked at group delay but there's less energy in mid-bass. This is a concern because lots of music has midbass and no real bass or low bass, so this might sound subjectively like there's less "bass." Seas themselve recommend 10-20L for the W18E001 and 36-44L for the W22EX...
You're on your own when you start substituing things and the beauty of the TJL or Trym is that they are well thoughts out designs, took months of tuning by measurements and plenty of subjective listening tests. I wouldn't mess with either design unless your have some previous design experience.
I'm not sure what your'e saying? It seems you want to marry the TJL to the Trym. I think this is a bad idea.
Looking at the Seas data sheets (but can't always trust them) in terms of harmonic distortion analysis perhaps the W18E001 and W22EX are similar in the sense of higher 3rd order harmonics past 1.5Khz due to cone breakup, and hence ideally both should be used below this point. But the 8" W22EX001 starts to beam around 2Khz, whereas the 7" W18E001 still shows good dispersion an octave above this, (compare their 30 degrees off axis response at 3-4Khz and 60 degrees off axis at 3Khz)
The W22EX will have more low end output because it has greater volume displacement due to 70% greater cone area and 1dB sensitivity, higher Qt and probably some other factors too that I haven't noticed. Troels uses the W22EX as a woofer in a larger box in his hybrid dipole 3-way Acapella SE. Louder, better bass than the W18E which acts as a midbass in his 2 way TJL...
-- 34L is too large for the W18E001.
-- Substituting the W22EX-001 will require complete crossover redesign.
-- See above, but I modelled a 28Hz tuning in a 34L cabinet for the W18E001 anyway and it yes it does goes lower. I haven't looked at group delay but there's less energy in mid-bass. This is a concern because lots of music has midbass and no real bass or low bass, so this might sound subjectively like there's less "bass." Seas themselve recommend 10-20L for the W18E001 and 36-44L for the W22EX...
You're on your own when you start substituing things and the beauty of the TJL or Trym is that they are well thoughts out designs, took months of tuning by measurements and plenty of subjective listening tests. I wouldn't mess with either design unless your have some previous design experience.
Thanks Tktran,
Such a good recommendation. I will be rethinking again. You said that you already own JP3, do you have a plan to build TJL? If that true, I'll be waiting to hear the result.
Sbolin,
Sory for my miss-typing. Their web-site is www.xav-audio.com . You also see their special bilt-to-order project at http://www.xav-audio.com/iboard/iview1.php?postid=527 .
If you don't need to DIY, you can select one from their goods model.
Such a good recommendation. I will be rethinking again. You said that you already own JP3, do you have a plan to build TJL? If that true, I'll be waiting to hear the result.
Sbolin,
Sory for my miss-typing. Their web-site is www.xav-audio.com . You also see their special bilt-to-order project at http://www.xav-audio.com/iboard/iview1.php?postid=527 .
If you don't need to DIY, you can select one from their goods model.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
No I don't have the JP3 or W18, yet.
But I do have the TJL cabinet. And PCB active crossover/EQ and their parts for the NaO, so they're committed projects.
ETA Feb 27, 2005.
But I do have the TJL cabinet. And PCB active crossover/EQ and their parts for the NaO, so they're committed projects.
ETA Feb 27, 2005.
I find it difficukt to believe that Seas would launch a kit, which doesn't give the audience a good impression of their drivers.
I haven't heard the Trym, even though I've had the oppertunity. The design just doesn't appeal to me. But I do know someone who have heard them, and think it sounds great.
santi, if you want to build standmounted speakers with Excel, let me know. I have measures and xo-design for W18E001 with two passive radiators, which sounds great.
Christer
I haven't heard the Trym, even though I've had the oppertunity. The design just doesn't appeal to me. But I do know someone who have heard them, and think it sounds great.
santi, if you want to build standmounted speakers with Excel, let me know. I have measures and xo-design for W18E001 with two passive radiators, which sounds great.
Christer
I believe that too.
Christer,
I prefer the tower. I don't need to pay more for a pair of good stand. I like Troel's TJL design, but someware I find some another design wich could be upgraded in the future. I think the Trym is able to upgrade to Linkwitz's ORION.
Now, I think, don't worry about upgrade. Just find a good design with decent cost for today. May be TJL or something if you suggest me.
Disabled Account
Joined 2003
IME, cabinets and crossovers constitute another 50-100% of cost, on top of the drivers... "Upgradeability" is something to consider, but if you put a large amount of effort into building boxes and crossovers, you may have some emotional difficulty ripping out drivers for use in another project...
I'm 99% certain TJL will sound excellent. Furthermore it's dimensions/footprint, and bass extension, placement consideration (baffle about 1-3' away from rear wall) IMHO makes it a great speaker for a medium sized room where very loud levels are not required.
Like the Ellis Audio 1801, I consider it reference 2-way for long-term listening and ownership.
I'm 99% certain TJL will sound excellent. Furthermore it's dimensions/footprint, and bass extension, placement consideration (baffle about 1-3' away from rear wall) IMHO makes it a great speaker for a medium sized room where very loud levels are not required.
Like the Ellis Audio 1801, I consider it reference 2-way for long-term listening and ownership.
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