Hello,
I am planning to build my speakers and I need some help from you to decide on which project to do:
A- E-Speakers.com ESG1+2 xPHL 3430 (MTM)
B- Gydotron.com's Gydoon: (Eidolon clone) with
Thiel (Acutton) C-12, C-79 and Eton 8-800-37 Hex
I want a loudspeaker with a lot of soul. (Very musical and engaging!)
I need to have a huge and well layered soundstage, a lot of air, detail, with good dynamics and microdynamics and a tonal balance on the sweet/warm side of neutral. (I don't like bright or lean sounding speakers)
Do you have any experience with the drivers mentioned above?
Could you please explain me the type of sound I can expect from these speakers?
Thanks
Borja
I am planning to build my speakers and I need some help from you to decide on which project to do:
A- E-Speakers.com ESG1+2 xPHL 3430 (MTM)
B- Gydotron.com's Gydoon: (Eidolon clone) with
Thiel (Acutton) C-12, C-79 and Eton 8-800-37 Hex
I want a loudspeaker with a lot of soul. (Very musical and engaging!)
I need to have a huge and well layered soundstage, a lot of air, detail, with good dynamics and microdynamics and a tonal balance on the sweet/warm side of neutral. (I don't like bright or lean sounding speakers)
Do you have any experience with the drivers mentioned above?
Could you please explain me the type of sound I can expect from these speakers?
Thanks
Borja
What type of amp?
Other system - listening space type of details?
What type of music do you listen to?
Budget??
Size? Spouse Approval Factor?
we really need more info to help point you in the right direction.
If you will give us some more parameters that'll help you get there quicker.
Ken L
Other system - listening space type of details?
What type of music do you listen to?
Budget??
Size? Spouse Approval Factor?
we really need more info to help point you in the right direction.
If you will give us some more parameters that'll help you get there quicker.
Ken L
More details....
Hello again...
I mainly listen to high tech jazz, downtempo electronic music (relaxing downtempo), jazz, and also to a few but very special classical music cds like the 4 Seasons by Giuliano Carmignola .
Pop and rock very, very ocasionally.
The cost of the drivers and crossover components is around 2500-3000 Euros for the 2 options I mentioned before.
WAF: It would be really nice if the speakers where not huge, but.... who knows?
Ideally a slim floorstander would cause me no arguments at home, but I know it is sometimes difficult to find a speaker the size of an Audio Physic Avanti, for example, that has an acceptable level of permonance and musicality. (I personally find the Virgo and the Avantis to be cold and not musically engaging...
I guess I don not like them much...)
Hello again...
I mainly listen to high tech jazz, downtempo electronic music (relaxing downtempo), jazz, and also to a few but very special classical music cds like the 4 Seasons by Giuliano Carmignola .
Pop and rock very, very ocasionally.
The cost of the drivers and crossover components is around 2500-3000 Euros for the 2 options I mentioned before.
WAF: It would be really nice if the speakers where not huge, but.... who knows?
Ideally a slim floorstander would cause me no arguments at home, but I know it is sometimes difficult to find a speaker the size of an Audio Physic Avanti, for example, that has an acceptable level of permonance and musicality. (I personally find the Virgo and the Avantis to be cold and not musically engaging...
I guess I don not like them much...)
??
yes what kind of amp? if you can spend 2500eur on speakers, especialy if you will make x overs by yourself(which is best) you have a lot of choise. also this speaker would be for every music. for yours mentioned styles you need 1000-1200eur max.
pesonaly I come to this connclusion 1inc tweeter, 8 inch driver. more simple-more better. drivers morel tweeters. woofer scanspeak. theuy are cheap(more or less) and 700-1000eur. is good money. make my word you didnt recognize this combo and yours planing.. so why waste money. if you want morebass(sensitivity) you can add one more driver(MTM)
regards
yes what kind of amp? if you can spend 2500eur on speakers, especialy if you will make x overs by yourself(which is best) you have a lot of choise. also this speaker would be for every music. for yours mentioned styles you need 1000-1200eur max.
pesonaly I come to this connclusion 1inc tweeter, 8 inch driver. more simple-more better. drivers morel tweeters. woofer scanspeak. theuy are cheap(more or less) and 700-1000eur. is good money. make my word you didnt recognize this combo and yours planing.. so why waste money. if you want morebass(sensitivity) you can add one more driver(MTM)
regards
This is a slightly different recommendation, but your listening desires almost exactly describe the sound of the Linkwitz Orion dipole speaker.
I have built a variation of this, and find it the best speaker I have owned, and that includes speakers from Wilson, Genesis, Sonus Faber and Martin Logan.
Details are here:
Orion Speakers Site
Cheers
Steve
I have built a variation of this, and find it the best speaker I have owned, and that includes speakers from Wilson, Genesis, Sonus Faber and Martin Logan.
Details are here:
Orion Speakers Site
Cheers
Steve
A- E-Speakers.com ESG1+2 xPHL 3430 (MTM)
The e-speakers.com designs are nice.
I think a ESG + PHL + Lambda TD15H
would be a great classic 3 way.
Or
MTM using same drivers in it's own
box on top of a Lambda 15" box,
integrate the two boxes, hehe...
Nice high sensitivity sound system,
but you will need a little bit more power
to drive the 15's. hehe
Wild card --> substitute Lambda TD15H
with TD12H.
The e-speakers.com designs are nice.
I think a ESG + PHL + Lambda TD15H
would be a great classic 3 way.
Or
MTM using same drivers in it's own
box on top of a Lambda 15" box,
integrate the two boxes, hehe...
Nice high sensitivity sound system,
but you will need a little bit more power
to drive the 15's. hehe
Wild card --> substitute Lambda TD15H
with TD12H.
Hi B online,
Why don't you make an Elektrostatic loudspeaker?
A friend of mine use to listen to Led Zeppelin, Rage against the mashine, Charly Antolini but also to Clasical (organ) music.
His ESL's can handle everything! He uses Hawk Audio A50 Amps.
I have ESL's myself and believe me they do go verry loud.
Best of all, they are semi transparent. you can look through it.
The Wife Accepting Factor is tremendus. They are about 5 cm (50 MM) thick! And they are verry precise and they DO sound warm.
I't cheaper to build than a conventional speaker!
Think about it, if you need more information, just ask or mail me.
Regards,
Audiofanatic😉
Why don't you make an Elektrostatic loudspeaker?
A friend of mine use to listen to Led Zeppelin, Rage against the mashine, Charly Antolini but also to Clasical (organ) music.
His ESL's can handle everything! He uses Hawk Audio A50 Amps.
I have ESL's myself and believe me they do go verry loud.
Best of all, they are semi transparent. you can look through it.
The Wife Accepting Factor is tremendus. They are about 5 cm (50 MM) thick! And they are verry precise and they DO sound warm.
I't cheaper to build than a conventional speaker!
Think about it, if you need more information, just ask or mail me.
Regards,
Audiofanatic😉
I use electrostatic speakers to,
original acoustat panels in a new enclosure.
For the low frequencies (subwoofer) I use the Peerless XLS10.
This combination sounds like you want, with powerfull and deep Bass.
The WAF factor is high as everything is not big and the woodwork and grille is matched with the colors of the livingroom.
So I also think you should consider electrostatic speakers.
Dick
original acoustat panels in a new enclosure.
For the low frequencies (subwoofer) I use the Peerless XLS10.
This combination sounds like you want, with powerfull and deep Bass.
The WAF factor is high as everything is not big and the woodwork and grille is matched with the colors of the livingroom.
So I also think you should consider electrostatic speakers.
Dick
b_online..please forgive me for posting this question in your thread!..
Hi Dick or Audiofanatic,
I got some Martin Logan Aerius from a colleague.
But the high electrostatics film does not generate sound. Just the woofer...
This colleague got them from his father in law. Worked fine at his father in laws house...moved them to his own house..no high freqs..
Does one of you maybe know how to repair these things? Or someone else that can.
Regards,
Bas
Hi Dick or Audiofanatic,
I got some Martin Logan Aerius from a colleague.
But the high electrostatics film does not generate sound. Just the woofer...
This colleague got them from his father in law. Worked fine at his father in laws house...moved them to his own house..no high freqs..
Does one of you maybe know how to repair these things? Or someone else that can.
Regards,
Bas
Bas,
I have been down the same path with old Martin Logans. The early designs were faulty in that they continously attracted dust to the ESL panel for many years slowly while the power switch was on so that the owner never new what was going on until he compared them with other speakers. Later designs had an auto switch-off to reduce the dust attraction to the ESL panel. New panels are about US$800 or if you can find out how to repair the membranes yourself.
Borja & others,
Borja, your choice of only 2 designs should be wider and consider others. I am little dissappointed with the the Esg 1 I have heard as it is not as detailed as a Raven R1. Its better than most dome tweeters however. And you are maybe asking for much in your speaker to have warmth plus detail and emotion. The Eidolon copy may will be colder sounding than you want. I have heard Accuton C79 3 way speakers and the sounding is not warm, but very detailed with amazing imaging. I agree with SteveDs recommendation for the Orion, however this is a more complicated project with the active amps etc, and the Seas Millenium tweeter does not keep up with good ribbon tweeters.
Also, I am not sure if ESL speakers have WAF as some are very big and wide and do not punch well enough for some people.
Sorry I don't have any other suggestions for you. The Proac 2.5 clone has great emotion and warmth but not detailed enough for you maybe.
Have you checked the JPO website for other designs?.
http://members.chello.se/jpo/
Good luck.
I have been down the same path with old Martin Logans. The early designs were faulty in that they continously attracted dust to the ESL panel for many years slowly while the power switch was on so that the owner never new what was going on until he compared them with other speakers. Later designs had an auto switch-off to reduce the dust attraction to the ESL panel. New panels are about US$800 or if you can find out how to repair the membranes yourself.
Borja & others,
Borja, your choice of only 2 designs should be wider and consider others. I am little dissappointed with the the Esg 1 I have heard as it is not as detailed as a Raven R1. Its better than most dome tweeters however. And you are maybe asking for much in your speaker to have warmth plus detail and emotion. The Eidolon copy may will be colder sounding than you want. I have heard Accuton C79 3 way speakers and the sounding is not warm, but very detailed with amazing imaging. I agree with SteveDs recommendation for the Orion, however this is a more complicated project with the active amps etc, and the Seas Millenium tweeter does not keep up with good ribbon tweeters.
Also, I am not sure if ESL speakers have WAF as some are very big and wide and do not punch well enough for some people.
Sorry I don't have any other suggestions for you. The Proac 2.5 clone has great emotion and warmth but not detailed enough for you maybe.
Have you checked the JPO website for other designs?.
http://members.chello.se/jpo/
Good luck.
Hi ALM,
With all due respect, but I can not agree with you on the ESL wearing out!
But I agree with you on the Raven R1 (so I hope to keep the ballance in the middle 😉
I'v build manny ESL's and the oldest one is about 8 years old and it still sound like new!
The best tweeter I'v ever listen too was a Raven R2 I don't know how the R3 sounds but there is nothing that beats this Ribbon!
b-online, I know some one that sell DIY sets so If you want I can ask him what the price will be to schip it to you.
I'v made my ESl's for less than EURO 2000,=
So think about it.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic 😉
With all due respect, but I can not agree with you on the ESL wearing out!
But I agree with you on the Raven R1 (so I hope to keep the ballance in the middle 😉
I'v build manny ESL's and the oldest one is about 8 years old and it still sound like new!
The best tweeter I'v ever listen too was a Raven R2 I don't know how the R3 sounds but there is nothing that beats this Ribbon!
b-online, I know some one that sell DIY sets so If you want I can ask him what the price will be to schip it to you.
I'v made my ESl's for less than EURO 2000,=
So think about it.
Best regards,
Audiofanatic 😉
Hi
I have built diy 2 ways using Scanspeaks as well as Raven R1s. You can check the zalytron site they have a lot of diy designs within your price range, including some using R1s and R2s, and they sell both the drivers and the crossovers as kits. If you have woodworking skills or facilities, you could get a very good set of speakers for a reasonable price. The Raven tweeters in my AriaR system uses Focal mids, the high frequenciy sounds are more detailed than the SS tweeter, but the bass is not as good as my SS mid. In both systems I use powered subs, but the AriaR is a bit wimpy without the sub.
Andre at E-speakers is a great guy to deal with, I have bought stuff from him. Ultimately the amp and preamp should match the speakers, in my view..
I have built diy 2 ways using Scanspeaks as well as Raven R1s. You can check the zalytron site they have a lot of diy designs within your price range, including some using R1s and R2s, and they sell both the drivers and the crossovers as kits. If you have woodworking skills or facilities, you could get a very good set of speakers for a reasonable price. The Raven tweeters in my AriaR system uses Focal mids, the high frequenciy sounds are more detailed than the SS tweeter, but the bass is not as good as my SS mid. In both systems I use powered subs, but the AriaR is a bit wimpy without the sub.
Andre at E-speakers is a great guy to deal with, I have bought stuff from him. Ultimately the amp and preamp should match the speakers, in my view..
Bas,
It can be many things.. Do I understand right that the ESL panels don't work at all and stopped working after the move?
If so my first guess would be a loose contact. Either with the HVsupply to the mylar film or the signal to the stators.
Do you know if you have HV on the film?
BTW. take care with the HVsupply if you touch it in the wrong place it gives you kV's!
Member
Joined 2002
Hey you said electro static speakers. Does any one know of a good link to build a tall pair. Are they hard to build. do they sound good.? i am very interested in reading and maybe putting some money in to build a pair. Got a link of a good design with good instructions.
Hi Audifanatic,
To explain a little more of my experience with some old M-L Aerius speakers, I bought them 2nd hand from a hifi shop. They were having problems with the speaker so I got them cheap but after getting expert local advice from a local ESL maker and cost from M-L factory in USA, I decided it was not worth it. The factory was going to provide a new set of panels with a cut-off circuit. I am not an ESL expert but this was my experience. The local ESL maker said he had repaired other old M-L speakers with the same problem. Perhaps this is only a problem with early M-L speakers.
I recognise the ESL picture posted (silver colour panels) here, as it was reviewed by Hifi Plus magazine. If you believe them, they said it was great in some areas but had some major problems. Looks great however.
Getting back to the original poster question, here are some driver combinations that may be worth considering for a 3 way speaker:
1. All Seas drivers except tweeter: ported bass 2 x W22ex; mid 1 x W15ex & tweeter Raven R1 or Heil AMT ribbon. Should have killer deep bass with 2 x 8" woofers acting like a 12", warm but detailed midrange and micro detail treble. Heil will be sweeter but not as detailed.
2. All Scanspeak: ported bass 2 x 18w/8535; mid 15w?Revelator & tweeters 9900 / 9700 or tweeters No. 1 above. Killer deep bass equal to a 10" with good midrange and treble. 9900 can be sharp sounding. Something a little like this project (except mid is Yamaha berylium & tweeter R1):
http://groups.msn.com/berryliumthing/berryliumheilss.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=29
3. Mix of drivers: Bass Peerless 12"/ Focal 10 or 12" kevlars/ PHL 10 or 12"/ Eton or Cabasse 21NDC; mid Accuton C79 / ATC dome / PHL 5" / Focal Audiom 7"mids; treble any of 1 & 2 above.
4. Full ESL or Hybrid line array speakers with ribbon tweeters and suitable 10-12" cone woofers mentioned above. Something like Excel array project in JPO list.
To explain a little more of my experience with some old M-L Aerius speakers, I bought them 2nd hand from a hifi shop. They were having problems with the speaker so I got them cheap but after getting expert local advice from a local ESL maker and cost from M-L factory in USA, I decided it was not worth it. The factory was going to provide a new set of panels with a cut-off circuit. I am not an ESL expert but this was my experience. The local ESL maker said he had repaired other old M-L speakers with the same problem. Perhaps this is only a problem with early M-L speakers.
I recognise the ESL picture posted (silver colour panels) here, as it was reviewed by Hifi Plus magazine. If you believe them, they said it was great in some areas but had some major problems. Looks great however.
Getting back to the original poster question, here are some driver combinations that may be worth considering for a 3 way speaker:
1. All Seas drivers except tweeter: ported bass 2 x W22ex; mid 1 x W15ex & tweeter Raven R1 or Heil AMT ribbon. Should have killer deep bass with 2 x 8" woofers acting like a 12", warm but detailed midrange and micro detail treble. Heil will be sweeter but not as detailed.
2. All Scanspeak: ported bass 2 x 18w/8535; mid 15w?Revelator & tweeters 9900 / 9700 or tweeters No. 1 above. Killer deep bass equal to a 10" with good midrange and treble. 9900 can be sharp sounding. Something a little like this project (except mid is Yamaha berylium & tweeter R1):
http://groups.msn.com/berryliumthing/berryliumheilss.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=29
3. Mix of drivers: Bass Peerless 12"/ Focal 10 or 12" kevlars/ PHL 10 or 12"/ Eton or Cabasse 21NDC; mid Accuton C79 / ATC dome / PHL 5" / Focal Audiom 7"mids; treble any of 1 & 2 above.
4. Full ESL or Hybrid line array speakers with ribbon tweeters and suitable 10-12" cone woofers mentioned above. Something like Excel array project in JPO list.
Hi Al.M
These ESL's have IMHO only major problems! You can't play loud, you can't listen to Led Zeppelin or Charli Antolini.
I do find them cute though, but they sound horrible!
Thanks for the detail about the Logans Al.M.
Regards,
Audiofanatic 😉
These ESL's have IMHO only major problems! You can't play loud, you can't listen to Led Zeppelin or Charli Antolini.
I do find them cute though, but they sound horrible!
Thanks for the detail about the Logans Al.M.
Regards,
Audiofanatic 😉
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