Having collected some promising drivers to cover from 16Hz to 20kHz, now some serious sims. Please bear in mind that due to rural regional location 1400km from Sydney, getting heavier items delivered has been problematic. A lot of times, vendors just notify with an out of stock with funds returned message
SBA and DS18 are the two brands that do send the deliveries and prices are affordable and here are some DS19 based sims including a couple of wildcards. Open to driver suggestions
This project is an attempt at shoehorning the most hardware into a cab with space constraints. Living in a tiny home makes one a bit conscious of volumes and space use. A 1cm increase in one dimension can potentially mean many more new litres. This audio project is on pocket money, channelling tobacco money to audio and recreational in nature, although I would mind making up some bespoke type parts with the digital studio and handcraft for folks when the tobacco runs out 🙂
A 50g pouch of tobacco costs over AUD $100 and the bwoy is broke after buying so much audio interest items 😀
Uses
Home cinema, when not working
Small DJ/karaoke gigs
Practice PA for a small student ensemble running synth pickups via Roland Aria MX-1 digital mixer, FL Studio with Akai FIRE control surface, Roland DJ-202 digital mixer with TR -Drums and sequencer, Roland JDXI synth that can be played with an instrument via line or mic, Yamaha MG12XU console and an electric bass guitar/double bass. Running school material through the EDM gear as extracurricular activity
SOR
Loudest full spectrum achievable within space constraints
Ability to run a flat response or Eq (onboard or external)
Electronic filters built into the system (onboard)
HT processing (onboard DTS,AC3)
Have the refining touch of bypassing the internal class d amp for the HF section and engaging an external tube amp for the tops when used at home
Config
A phantom centre based 4.1 channel satellite and sub config is appealing for not having heavy boxes up in the air. If a single LF section tests sufficient, then the 4.1 config has the added bonus of being able to fly with for tours in the home country by swapping out with a higher tuned, smaller sub cab. If a single sub is not sufficient, the cabs will be built as 3-ways with each cab featuring an HF and LF section for 4x cabs total
Primary use is HT with mostly music video and concert recording from Rototom Sunsplash type YouTube channels, streaming sites such a Netflix,. The HF sections will run of 2x 10w+10w EL43 tube power amps and a tube stage or Pass H2 inserted in the LF path. Room is 3m x 6m with three walls that can open up. This space is the open deck of a 6m custom catamaran. A bit like a pontoon boat, but not the tacky aluminium types of things that are very popular. Ours are a pair of hulls in HDPE filled with survey grade foam and tiki style wooden cosmetic finish. The walls are privacy/weather screens in wood strip and plexiglass. This vessel is under currently under construction as home DIY. It's getting built to Au maritime survey and will be rented out when not being used by us. Setting up for a working retirement with this and two other vessels, a 3.5m centre console semi GEV sports fisher and a 3.5m beach cat to deck boat conversion with deck chairs and human/electric hybrid propulsion. The location is Hervey Bay so no issues with noise pollution with being easily able to put double-digit kilometres to the next soul
Secondary use is as the mentioned PA system, with back to back pair on either side and out from the desk. To fire at the desk, any performing floor space between these wide monitors and the desk, and well to fire away from this area. School hall or someone's porch or lawn for lil DJ/karaoke type gigs. Of course the desk will also have nearfield monitors too. These are from the 'Exploring the ZR6.4D' thread in subwoofers
Our Roland and Akai pro gear will be housed in a travel case to be easily relocated to home or houseboat, as well as away trips. All the amp modules and DSP processing to be built in the speaker cabs except the tube amps which will be installed in the houseboat
So as some wind down from looking after the baby and running around all day for the family and renovations and boat builds, let's have some fun blowing up stubborn high excursion subs by winding up the power and beating up the Iron Law by taking it up to the melting point 😀
These are the drivers in contention at the moment. These have some means of environmental protection in a marine environment. Other suggestions are also very welcome. But please, apple to apples.....ok to use large format systems such as traditional PA for reference comparisons but always ask the question on how that favoured PA driver or hi-fi brand would go in these size constraints vs the SPL/response requirements. If one's fav 18" with 108dB sensitivity cant meet the SOR than the matter of fact is that it is just not good enough for the job. If a cheap and apparently looked down upon car audio gear can hit the numbers in the constraints, then they are the better drivers on the day
Constraints
10L internal is the max allowable for each driver volume for the HF sections
40L internal is the max for the LF section/sections
Smaller volumes than that would be even better
Driver pool HF
PRO-ZT69
ZXi-354
Nilspec 6.5" FR
Driver pool LF
ZR12.4D
10" DVC Unobtantium (almost half the price of the ZR12.4D)
12" DVC Wildcard, not yet acquired ($50 cheaper than the ZR12.4D)
SLC12S, not yet acquired (half the price of the ZR12.4D)
SLC10S "" (less than half price of the ZR12.4D)
SLC8S "" (well under AUD $100)
ZR6.4D, the super stubborn, super low sensitivity driver from the failed Cub Sandwich project as the near filed woofers and to compare just to get a feel of the difference in loudness levels
A side project will be to use the ZXi-354 will be used with ones of the LF drivers at an attempt at the 'high SPL. Full spectrum, 2-way' thing just out of interest
Another side project is getting one of the coaxials into a single format cab with the Unobtanium driver as a 3-way for simple travel and mixing down stereo sources to mono for use tested against the same driver with a pair of stereo ZXi-354 or 3" Tang bands again in a single box. If the ability to present a solid stereo image cannot be obtained from that, then the single coax will be kept
A single cab 3-way is needed to be in use by August, but the full development is not a rush thing and more for fun. I must mention @weltersys for helping me learn some of his lifetime of knowledge, so I may pursue this with valid data and calculations and as well for picking up on problem areas. Also @GM, Great Man, thanks for not beating around the bush and allowing me the confidence to work towards unfamiliar high SPL numbers with his direct anecdote and reflections with hands on SPL taking in his areas of use. Very grateful to these two guys
SBA and DS18 are the two brands that do send the deliveries and prices are affordable and here are some DS19 based sims including a couple of wildcards. Open to driver suggestions
This project is an attempt at shoehorning the most hardware into a cab with space constraints. Living in a tiny home makes one a bit conscious of volumes and space use. A 1cm increase in one dimension can potentially mean many more new litres. This audio project is on pocket money, channelling tobacco money to audio and recreational in nature, although I would mind making up some bespoke type parts with the digital studio and handcraft for folks when the tobacco runs out 🙂
A 50g pouch of tobacco costs over AUD $100 and the bwoy is broke after buying so much audio interest items 😀
Uses
Home cinema, when not working
Small DJ/karaoke gigs
Practice PA for a small student ensemble running synth pickups via Roland Aria MX-1 digital mixer, FL Studio with Akai FIRE control surface, Roland DJ-202 digital mixer with TR -Drums and sequencer, Roland JDXI synth that can be played with an instrument via line or mic, Yamaha MG12XU console and an electric bass guitar/double bass. Running school material through the EDM gear as extracurricular activity
SOR
Loudest full spectrum achievable within space constraints
Ability to run a flat response or Eq (onboard or external)
Electronic filters built into the system (onboard)
HT processing (onboard DTS,AC3)
Have the refining touch of bypassing the internal class d amp for the HF section and engaging an external tube amp for the tops when used at home
Config
A phantom centre based 4.1 channel satellite and sub config is appealing for not having heavy boxes up in the air. If a single LF section tests sufficient, then the 4.1 config has the added bonus of being able to fly with for tours in the home country by swapping out with a higher tuned, smaller sub cab. If a single sub is not sufficient, the cabs will be built as 3-ways with each cab featuring an HF and LF section for 4x cabs total
Primary use is HT with mostly music video and concert recording from Rototom Sunsplash type YouTube channels, streaming sites such a Netflix,. The HF sections will run of 2x 10w+10w EL43 tube power amps and a tube stage or Pass H2 inserted in the LF path. Room is 3m x 6m with three walls that can open up. This space is the open deck of a 6m custom catamaran. A bit like a pontoon boat, but not the tacky aluminium types of things that are very popular. Ours are a pair of hulls in HDPE filled with survey grade foam and tiki style wooden cosmetic finish. The walls are privacy/weather screens in wood strip and plexiglass. This vessel is under currently under construction as home DIY. It's getting built to Au maritime survey and will be rented out when not being used by us. Setting up for a working retirement with this and two other vessels, a 3.5m centre console semi GEV sports fisher and a 3.5m beach cat to deck boat conversion with deck chairs and human/electric hybrid propulsion. The location is Hervey Bay so no issues with noise pollution with being easily able to put double-digit kilometres to the next soul
Secondary use is as the mentioned PA system, with back to back pair on either side and out from the desk. To fire at the desk, any performing floor space between these wide monitors and the desk, and well to fire away from this area. School hall or someone's porch or lawn for lil DJ/karaoke type gigs. Of course the desk will also have nearfield monitors too. These are from the 'Exploring the ZR6.4D' thread in subwoofers
Our Roland and Akai pro gear will be housed in a travel case to be easily relocated to home or houseboat, as well as away trips. All the amp modules and DSP processing to be built in the speaker cabs except the tube amps which will be installed in the houseboat
So as some wind down from looking after the baby and running around all day for the family and renovations and boat builds, let's have some fun blowing up stubborn high excursion subs by winding up the power and beating up the Iron Law by taking it up to the melting point 😀
These are the drivers in contention at the moment. These have some means of environmental protection in a marine environment. Other suggestions are also very welcome. But please, apple to apples.....ok to use large format systems such as traditional PA for reference comparisons but always ask the question on how that favoured PA driver or hi-fi brand would go in these size constraints vs the SPL/response requirements. If one's fav 18" with 108dB sensitivity cant meet the SOR than the matter of fact is that it is just not good enough for the job. If a cheap and apparently looked down upon car audio gear can hit the numbers in the constraints, then they are the better drivers on the day
Constraints
10L internal is the max allowable for each driver volume for the HF sections
40L internal is the max for the LF section/sections
Smaller volumes than that would be even better
Driver pool HF
PRO-ZT69
ZXi-354
Nilspec 6.5" FR
Driver pool LF
ZR12.4D
10" DVC Unobtantium (almost half the price of the ZR12.4D)
12" DVC Wildcard, not yet acquired ($50 cheaper than the ZR12.4D)
SLC12S, not yet acquired (half the price of the ZR12.4D)
SLC10S "" (less than half price of the ZR12.4D)
SLC8S "" (well under AUD $100)
ZR6.4D, the super stubborn, super low sensitivity driver from the failed Cub Sandwich project as the near filed woofers and to compare just to get a feel of the difference in loudness levels
A side project will be to use the ZXi-354 will be used with ones of the LF drivers at an attempt at the 'high SPL. Full spectrum, 2-way' thing just out of interest
Another side project is getting one of the coaxials into a single format cab with the Unobtanium driver as a 3-way for simple travel and mixing down stereo sources to mono for use tested against the same driver with a pair of stereo ZXi-354 or 3" Tang bands again in a single box. If the ability to present a solid stereo image cannot be obtained from that, then the single coax will be kept
A single cab 3-way is needed to be in use by August, but the full development is not a rush thing and more for fun. I must mention @weltersys for helping me learn some of his lifetime of knowledge, so I may pursue this with valid data and calculations and as well for picking up on problem areas. Also @GM, Great Man, thanks for not beating around the bush and allowing me the confidence to work towards unfamiliar high SPL numbers with his direct anecdote and reflections with hands on SPL taking in his areas of use. Very grateful to these two guys
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Plan is to make a pair of 10L cabs out of 16mm MDF offcuts ported at 75hz and a single 40L cab ported at 26Hz. I can trial this with outboard amps as a 2.1 or stack one 10L on top of the 40L to test as a 3-way format. Maybe I will get lucky and the 2.1 config is loud enough for my purposes, then another pair of 10L satellites will be perfect for a compact and loud 4.1 HT. Otherwise, turn up the wick to 4x subs or 4x 3-ways
I am guessing that creating those two cabs sims in WinISD and showing both traces, refining volumes and ports and such is the next step for the 3-way. Can't figure out how to display the added gain from doubling Sd and amp for the tops to superimpose over the sub plot for the 2.1 config. Is it as simple as doubling the satellite volume, power and driver count?
I am guessing that creating those two cabs sims in WinISD and showing both traces, refining volumes and ports and such is the next step for the 3-way. Can't figure out how to display the added gain from doubling Sd and amp for the tops to superimpose over the sub plot for the 2.1 config. Is it as simple as doubling the satellite volume, power and driver count?
I have edited the OP to properly present the project and to consolidate various issues raised in various other threads discussion certain aspects of the prospective project such as the Xmax thread and the High SPL, High Sensitivity point source thread as well as the now cancelled Cub Sandwich threads. Still on the lookout for a higher output 6.5" driver to revive that one
The PRO-ZT69s arrived yesterday, and they look and feel like heavy duty but shrunken PA subs with a large chunky machined alloy tweeter housing. Their build inspires me to buy an extra unit for experimentation for another side project. These drivers are supper loud in sims with just only 10w. I plan to dope the cone on the extra unit and lower its Fs and use a passive radiator to see if I can strike a balance in low bass/clean quiet low volume with tubes based stereo portable. for more intimate listening by using DSP to get that low output but bass biased response
The ZR12.4D and the 2nd ZR6.5D are also here and after some initial sims, I am feeling the itch to order the two 12" Wildcards too for trails. They kick the more expensive ZR12.4D in the pants for sheer output, but I think we all know that raw output numbers are not a measure for quality. I expect the ZR to be very controlled, as the factors that go into making it inefficient are also the very solid mechanical suspension that keeps it accurate and the very high power required for control
There was a write-up in the Au Hi-fi magazine when the Sunfire was first launched and this explained a lot of things about how these breed of drivers and amps as well as DSP interact in the high SPL stakes. There was a similar write-up when the JL Audio Gotham was launched. Recommended read @JMFahey
This manipulation of the Iron Law has natively been a part of car audio since the launch of the still in production JL Audio W7 series a lifetime ago. I can see in the threads so far that the DIY audio world is not really aware of the possibilities enjoyed in the home by those who are savy with car audio gear. Example, the users of the Gotham and Fathom at the premeium commercial end and the countless home subs made by car audio guys
It appears that the forum at large does not recognise the fact that more money is spent on the development of car audio gear and I get the feeling that folks think that the drivers are specifically designed to be great inside the car. This is not the reality, these drivers are desinged to be workable from much smaller containers and be heard approaching the next city block! The bass from my car can be heard a long way if turned up lots. I cant hear the bass from a rock concert at the same oval from the same distance.........please do not deride subs and drivers from the car world. They are worthy of respect for what they can do too
The PRO-ZT69s arrived yesterday, and they look and feel like heavy duty but shrunken PA subs with a large chunky machined alloy tweeter housing. Their build inspires me to buy an extra unit for experimentation for another side project. These drivers are supper loud in sims with just only 10w. I plan to dope the cone on the extra unit and lower its Fs and use a passive radiator to see if I can strike a balance in low bass/clean quiet low volume with tubes based stereo portable. for more intimate listening by using DSP to get that low output but bass biased response
The ZR12.4D and the 2nd ZR6.5D are also here and after some initial sims, I am feeling the itch to order the two 12" Wildcards too for trails. They kick the more expensive ZR12.4D in the pants for sheer output, but I think we all know that raw output numbers are not a measure for quality. I expect the ZR to be very controlled, as the factors that go into making it inefficient are also the very solid mechanical suspension that keeps it accurate and the very high power required for control
There was a write-up in the Au Hi-fi magazine when the Sunfire was first launched and this explained a lot of things about how these breed of drivers and amps as well as DSP interact in the high SPL stakes. There was a similar write-up when the JL Audio Gotham was launched. Recommended read @JMFahey
This manipulation of the Iron Law has natively been a part of car audio since the launch of the still in production JL Audio W7 series a lifetime ago. I can see in the threads so far that the DIY audio world is not really aware of the possibilities enjoyed in the home by those who are savy with car audio gear. Example, the users of the Gotham and Fathom at the premeium commercial end and the countless home subs made by car audio guys
It appears that the forum at large does not recognise the fact that more money is spent on the development of car audio gear and I get the feeling that folks think that the drivers are specifically designed to be great inside the car. This is not the reality, these drivers are desinged to be workable from much smaller containers and be heard approaching the next city block! The bass from my car can be heard a long way if turned up lots. I cant hear the bass from a rock concert at the same oval from the same distance.........please do not deride subs and drivers from the car world. They are worthy of respect for what they can do too