Hi
I'm looking to purchase or build a pair of PA speakers for outdoor use of background music and some party dance level. I would also like them to be suitable for "hi-fi" music enjoyment around the campfire (lots of detail - balanced sound).
I will be using a dc domestic amplifier powered by a car battery and step up. Hence the need for efficiency.
I will not have dsp ability, hence the need for balanced sound.
I have come up with three quite different possibilities, and would appreciate input from you guys and perhaps suggestions of alternatives.
(1) Second hand Peavey Hi-Sys3. This is a 70s/80's three way. 2x 12" Black widow bass, 6.5" midrange, and HT94 horn tweeter.
45hz-20khz. 1200w Prog 700W Cont. XO Frequency 800hx and 10K. Sensitivity 101dB 1w1m. 4ohm.
PEAVEY HISYS 3 SPEAKERS | eBay
(2) Second hand HK Audio Premium Pro 12. This is a modern 12+1.
68hz-19khz. 800W prog 1200W peak. XO Frequency 2.2Khz. Sensitivity 104dB half space. 8 ohm
HK Audio Premium PR:O 12 – Thomann UK
(3) DIY build Bill Fitzmaurice Omni 15. Three way, horn, horn, horn.
Few specs but Sensitivity 104+ dB. 4 Ohm I think.
Omni 15 Fullrange
I'm looking to purchase or build a pair of PA speakers for outdoor use of background music and some party dance level. I would also like them to be suitable for "hi-fi" music enjoyment around the campfire (lots of detail - balanced sound).
I will be using a dc domestic amplifier powered by a car battery and step up. Hence the need for efficiency.
I will not have dsp ability, hence the need for balanced sound.
I have come up with three quite different possibilities, and would appreciate input from you guys and perhaps suggestions of alternatives.
(1) Second hand Peavey Hi-Sys3. This is a 70s/80's three way. 2x 12" Black widow bass, 6.5" midrange, and HT94 horn tweeter.
45hz-20khz. 1200w Prog 700W Cont. XO Frequency 800hx and 10K. Sensitivity 101dB 1w1m. 4ohm.
PEAVEY HISYS 3 SPEAKERS | eBay
(2) Second hand HK Audio Premium Pro 12. This is a modern 12+1.
68hz-19khz. 800W prog 1200W peak. XO Frequency 2.2Khz. Sensitivity 104dB half space. 8 ohm
HK Audio Premium PR:O 12 – Thomann UK
(3) DIY build Bill Fitzmaurice Omni 15. Three way, horn, horn, horn.
Few specs but Sensitivity 104+ dB. 4 Ohm I think.
Omni 15 Fullrange
Negatives:
The Peaveys: are mega heavy.
HK Audio: is only two way.
BFM Omni15: will require many hours of build.
Positives:
The Peaveys: are cheap
HK Audio: would be easy to transport
BFM Omni15: might provide balanced hifi sound at high efficiency???
The Peaveys: are mega heavy.
HK Audio: is only two way.
BFM Omni15: will require many hours of build.
Positives:
The Peaveys: are cheap
HK Audio: would be easy to transport
BFM Omni15: might provide balanced hifi sound at high efficiency???
I'm delighted with the sound of my Peavey SP2XT. +-3db 54 hz -14 khz. My ears only go to 14 khz so 2 way is fine with me. SP2 is even better and 6 lb lighter. 101 db 1w1m for the XT's, 98 for the SP2 2004 spec. The crossover of the 2" horn driver is better than all those 1" competitors including the PV3. These are 8 ohms, I drive them with a single pair of MJ15003 at 70v single rail.
Found my XT's for $600 the pair. The plus side, they still sell drivers if you blow one. (Mine are original 98 models)
The suspensions are still good in my 1210's which date from the mid-80's at least, so the rubber they used was stellar.
When auditioning, take a CD of piano music, say Appasionaata Sonata which is full range. Listen to a live grand piano previously, so you know what one is supposed to sound like. Most speakers can't get this sound right.
Found my XT's for $600 the pair. The plus side, they still sell drivers if you blow one. (Mine are original 98 models)
The suspensions are still good in my 1210's which date from the mid-80's at least, so the rubber they used was stellar.
When auditioning, take a CD of piano music, say Appasionaata Sonata which is full range. Listen to a live grand piano previously, so you know what one is supposed to sound like. Most speakers can't get this sound right.
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Michael,
I am wondering if we would be better off removing the word fullrange from the title as 2 of your 3 suggestions are not FR's.
I am wondering if we would be better off removing the word fullrange from the title as 2 of your 3 suggestions are not FR's.
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The Old Peaveys are your best bet IMO, here's why.
Peavey Hi sys3: The specs are NOT exaggerated, this 3-way design will sound good with just a little EQ and it'll be indestructible for your uses.
HK Pro 12: No way this box has a 104dB sensitivity, it would be more like 94dB IF this was a true fullrange box but with it's high tuning it will do a bit better... maybe 96-98dB but that also means the box produces NO BASS by modern standards. Subs will be needed.
BMF Omni15: This box should be the loudest of the bunch but DSP processing will not be optional.. I don't care what anybody says, no way this design sounds anything close to hifi without judicious use of parametric EQ and driver time alignment.
Peavey Hi sys3: The specs are NOT exaggerated, this 3-way design will sound good with just a little EQ and it'll be indestructible for your uses.
HK Pro 12: No way this box has a 104dB sensitivity, it would be more like 94dB IF this was a true fullrange box but with it's high tuning it will do a bit better... maybe 96-98dB but that also means the box produces NO BASS by modern standards. Subs will be needed.
BMF Omni15: This box should be the loudest of the bunch but DSP processing will not be optional.. I don't care what anybody says, no way this design sounds anything close to hifi without judicious use of parametric EQ and driver time alignment.
Have You considered Turbosound IQ or Yamaha DXR series ?
I've listened to HK audio mainly on weddings and never liked the sound of them, but like the Peavey sound. There are also the JBL Eon … Even Thomann's own brand "the box" have nice sound. I own two non passive speakers. Many options to choose from.
I've listened to HK audio mainly on weddings and never liked the sound of them, but like the Peavey sound. There are also the JBL Eon … Even Thomann's own brand "the box" have nice sound. I own two non passive speakers. Many options to choose from.
The HK Pro 12 do not make any bass, that are tops only. You'll need a subwoofer and if you want to use it outdoors, that's no discussion definitely mandatory. If you want to provide some low background music you can probably get away without a sub.
The Omni15 definitely need the roomgain to produce any bass, don't let the response plot fool you. The very short bass horns only work at higher frequencies. They even in a room need heavy EQ, the bass is more than 10dB below the midrange level.
In the end it just comes down to what it is, it's a guitar or bass speaker, not a PA speaker, not in the least.
The Peavey remain as the only real option, in my opinion not the worst you can get. They are not nearly as old as you might think, they are from the 90s. Best indicator are the speakon connectors and the labeling of the pin configuration, you won't get something like that if someone just slapped a speakon onto an ancient speaker. They won't go super deep, so rap isn't that much fun but they are real fullrange speakers, they are perfect for rock etc.
If you can get them for a small coin, go for it.
What amp do you use?
I would use separate tops and subs; easier to transport and better bass due to placement. (all subs together, and on the ground)
Something like 8"or 2x 6,5"+tweeter tops and 2/4x 12/15"subs, but that requires at least 2 amps and a low level x-over. Many car amps can do that, but like low impedance loads/speakers.
Having the subs separate and horn loaded will save a lot of (battery) power and even more important, amps need to be class D.
I would use separate tops and subs; easier to transport and better bass due to placement. (all subs together, and on the ground)
Something like 8"or 2x 6,5"+tweeter tops and 2/4x 12/15"subs, but that requires at least 2 amps and a low level x-over. Many car amps can do that, but like low impedance loads/speakers.
Having the subs separate and horn loaded will save a lot of (battery) power and even more important, amps need to be class D.
While I agree a tops/subs arrangement got definitely advantages, it's a lot more to set up. The tops need tripods, there are a lot more cables to set up and more amp channels are needed and the settings have to be changed at different distances of the sub(s) to the tops (phase does matter). Fullrange speakers are much easier to set up and amp and electronics/dsp isn't a problem, practically everything goes. I'm not against tops/subs but everything got its advantages and drawbacks. What's really neede is something only dublin78 can answer.
Agree, although 1 sub (transport wheels+ handle?) with a 2.1 amp build in, 2 small tops, 1 pole and 1 (camera?) tripod might be enough depending on wanted output levels. That still could outperform option 2 in output and SQ greatly.
My idea was to match options 1 and 3 in output.
If you lift 'fullrange' speakers off the ground, you lose ground/floor coupling and the ground reflections will even cancel the bass.
If not the tweeters will probably be to low for a group of people to enjoy.
"party dance level" Outdoors IMO means he needs a lot of bass and thus the 6dB (half space) ground coupling and probably more then 1 sub.
My idea was to match options 1 and 3 in output.
If you lift 'fullrange' speakers off the ground, you lose ground/floor coupling and the ground reflections will even cancel the bass.
If not the tweeters will probably be to low for a group of people to enjoy.
"party dance level" Outdoors IMO means he needs a lot of bass and thus the 6dB (half space) ground coupling and probably more then 1 sub.
Of those three options, my vote would be the Peavey speakers, and strap each of them to a hand truck. Bolt the amp+battery to the top of one of them, and run a SpeakOn cable across to the other.
I'd also be looking for the usual low-hanging fruit to improve them:
- Cabinet bracing
- Cabinet lining and other acoustic treatments
- Possibly re-work the crossover if you fancy that.
I'd forget about trying to get those particular speakers off the ground unless it's for a paying customer and it needs to be good. In that case, though, I'd put 2x double-18" cabs underneath them to get the height. Tripods aren't fun with a speaker this heavy.
Since you're in Cheshire, you're probably not that far away from me. If you want a hand setting up or tweaking the crossover to get them sounding good, gimme a shout.
Chris
I'd also be looking for the usual low-hanging fruit to improve them:
- Cabinet bracing
- Cabinet lining and other acoustic treatments
- Possibly re-work the crossover if you fancy that.
I'd forget about trying to get those particular speakers off the ground unless it's for a paying customer and it needs to be good. In that case, though, I'd put 2x double-18" cabs underneath them to get the height. Tripods aren't fun with a speaker this heavy.
Since you're in Cheshire, you're probably not that far away from me. If you want a hand setting up or tweaking the crossover to get them sounding good, gimme a shout.
Chris
Well, he wants to be able to run it off of a DC power source, that usually means a car battery. While there are battery powered speakers and some of them can be used at 12V, I don't know of many battery powered 2.1 sets. I found the LD Systems Maui 5 Go to be the cheapest which are 700 bucks per side and then you've only got one 8" sub each side (vs. 2x (4x) 12" at the Peaveys).
You'll lose the ground coupling, that's true but it will not cancel the bass, the wavelength is way to long to do that and since the ground is the 'mirror', you don't get enough phase shift/sound running distance difference for a cancelling. Remember, the wavelength of 100Hz are 3,43m, of 50Hz is 6,86m.
Also, the ground coupling doesn't work like a switch, it goes gradually. Aside from that, you can EQ the bass of the Peavey, they are tuned deep enough, with the others you can't since they are tuned way too high (HK) or got way too small horns to reproduce bass outdoors anyway (Omni 15) since you'd have to lift them as high as the Peavey too and they not only need the ground but the walls aswell to work.
Can you suggest anything in that price range? No matter from which angle you're looking, the Peavey are still the best option.
You will lose the ground coupling of the higher frequencies first, not gradually
over all frequencies.
As far as I know, the physics rule is <1/8 or >1 wavelength to walls/floor/ceiling; half of the CTC spacing as the sound travels the distance 2 times before it's back at the driver.
Woofers 1m from the ground will give cancellation above 85Hz
Woofer 1.5m from the ground will give cancellation above 57Hz
About 2/3 of the power goes to the subs outdoors, so the 6dB ground coupling (about the same as 4x the power input) will give a lot more output or battery life.
over all frequencies.
As far as I know, the physics rule is <1/8 or >1 wavelength to walls/floor/ceiling; half of the CTC spacing as the sound travels the distance 2 times before it's back at the driver.
Woofers 1m from the ground will give cancellation above 85Hz
Woofer 1.5m from the ground will give cancellation above 57Hz
About 2/3 of the power goes to the subs outdoors, so the 6dB ground coupling (about the same as 4x the power input) will give a lot more output or battery life.
If the Peavey Hi-Sys3 are anything like the Pro 15 which I bought second hand (and fitted different drivers), they are heavy because they are made with mdf except the front baffle which was ply. All cabling inside isnt much more than bell wire so well worth replacing. There was absolutely no sound deadening inside, or any cabinet bracing, so worth sorting that out too.
Yes, gradually and over distance + frequency. Not like a switch.
No, sorry, that's completely wrong, because
1. that's not the distance from the ground but the distance to the nex reflecting wall, no matter which it is.
2. that doesn't include the addition/peaks which do add on the low end the same as the cancelling, just at other frequencies -> roomgain, room modes. Yes, you get dips but peaks aswell.
and
3. it's not in a room! Outdoors are no walls, that's half-space, there is only the ground and no back or side reflections, therefore just the reflection of the ground and as long as you don't place the speakers that way (height) they get a 180° phase shift towards the speaker. No reflection from the back means, you don't have the sound runtime difference/phase shift of the backwards or sideways radiated low frequency sound because it simply isn't reflected.
Only the phase difference of your ears to the speaker vs. the mirrored/reflected sound are in effect. That is around ~40cm depending on listening distance but at a wavelength of 3,43m (100Hz) or 6,86m (50Hz) that's just such a small phase shift, you don't get a noticable reduction in spl, you aren't even able to notice the difference because the human ear is pretty much deaf to even radical phase shifts at that frequency or so small spl differences. That's why you can get away with the 180° phase shift of a ported enclosure at the tuning frequency.
Yes, that's true but you have at the same time the losses of more amp channels. And you often don't have to rise them that high that you lose 6dB in the whole bass range.
You miss one important point though: Outdoors the surface of the membranes get you much more spl than you can compensate through power, once you go over a certain spl. The 2 12" drivers got the same surface of a 18" (per side!) but i.e. the LD Systems Maui 5 Go just got just 8" and are 6x more expensive! From the much higher membrane surface (~1200cm² vs. ~250cm² per side) you'll lose about 18dB at ~100Hz and about 24dB dynamic at 50Hz, therefore you can't compete, even if the 6dB are subtracted, you'll need 1600W instead of 100W on the Peavey to reach the same spl (granted the 8" would even do such an excursion and would be able to handle the power and that there would be no power compression). That does, in fact, not save any power.
Sure, you can go for a 2.1 with a bigger subwoofer but even with one 18" you'd only get even with the Peavey and the -6dB off. These systems are much more expensive (15" 2.1 start at ~500, 18" at a bit over 1000 bucks) and they aren't even able to run on battery.
Why don't you post something you think is better at that price?
and therefore not actually an option for dublin78.
I've made a mistake while reading the table. The table included the higher power rating of the bigger drivers, so let's subtract roughly 3dB, making it ~21dB/15dB dynamics advantage and 100 vs. 800W.
Evening (in the UK) Gents.
Thanks so much for the helpful input and sensible suggestions.
It looks like I am definitely going to go down the Peavey Hi-sys3 route. They are 54.5kg. That was the main downside. The idea of a wheeled cart is a good one, as I would like to be able to move them about the camp (private) area for different purposes during the day and evening.
Chris: Thanks for the offer of help with XO optimising, I may well take you up on that. I can obviously rewire, add bracing and lining and maybe stuffing myself as required. I will come back and ask about this in due course. Perhaps upgrade some caps???
The amp that I am going to try initially is an FX Audio D802C. It is circa 80W into 4 Ohms. This should be sufficient as super loud will not be appropriate/allowed/tolerated with our kids sleeping in tents nearby. I am planning on using a spare 110 aH 12v car battery that I have. Step it up to 24v or 32v. The amp comes with an external smps to provide 32vdc, so this should be very straightforward. If more juice is required, then I have a nice 2x300W sure board that I can “borrow” from my office system. The FX Audio unit is quite efficient and is direct digital. It has Bluetooth built in, but I can also play lossless files fed into the USB input via an ipad/iphone with an OTG lead. I am not sure whether these speakers would be able to demonstrate the difference in definition, but it would be nice if they would.
Thanks so much for the helpful input and sensible suggestions.
It looks like I am definitely going to go down the Peavey Hi-sys3 route. They are 54.5kg. That was the main downside. The idea of a wheeled cart is a good one, as I would like to be able to move them about the camp (private) area for different purposes during the day and evening.
Chris: Thanks for the offer of help with XO optimising, I may well take you up on that. I can obviously rewire, add bracing and lining and maybe stuffing myself as required. I will come back and ask about this in due course. Perhaps upgrade some caps???
The amp that I am going to try initially is an FX Audio D802C. It is circa 80W into 4 Ohms. This should be sufficient as super loud will not be appropriate/allowed/tolerated with our kids sleeping in tents nearby. I am planning on using a spare 110 aH 12v car battery that I have. Step it up to 24v or 32v. The amp comes with an external smps to provide 32vdc, so this should be very straightforward. If more juice is required, then I have a nice 2x300W sure board that I can “borrow” from my office system. The FX Audio unit is quite efficient and is direct digital. It has Bluetooth built in, but I can also play lossless files fed into the USB input via an ipad/iphone with an OTG lead. I am not sure whether these speakers would be able to demonstrate the difference in definition, but it would be nice if they would.
Chris: I have just come back from Sheffield this afternoon. I popped over the Peak District to look at a potential new to me used car. It broke down on the test drive. Grrr. We visited Chatsworth House and a couple of pubs, so all was not lost.
Peavey SP2 are 32 kg. Peavey SP2XT are 43 kg. Also a bit more modern. If you can find some that don't have aftermarket woofers. Mine are original.
They do work best on poles, projectng highs down at the audience.
No problem.
I wasn't thinking of upgrading caps (the differences are marginal and down to personal taste), but more re-designing the crossover.
It's been my experience that the crossover can make or break a set of speakers, and the engineers at Peavey will have had to make sure their crossover was, er, cost effective.
My point being that spending £50 on crossover components might well get the speakers to go from sounding like a PA speaker, to sounding like a HiFi speaker that happens to be able to do 120dB.
Shame about the car, but glad you got to have a look around. There are lots of excellent spots for walking in that neck of the woods, plus places like Froggatt Edge which really blows away the cobwebs.
Chris
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