Hello, everyone.
I'm new at building amps, so I would like some opinions and a little help on how I'm going to proceed.
Me and my band are looking into building some tube amps, one for me(guitar amp), and one for our bassist.
The reason why I want to build this myself is:
1. I'm able to make my own sound the way I want it to sound.
2. The price for a good tubeamp here in Norway is insanely expensive.
3. I would LOVE to be able to build my own tube amps! I love electronics, and I'm currently building some stomp box clones. Lets hope that ends up successful.
Ok, let me explain a little what I want to build.
I wanna build a guitar amp(tubes ofc) around 120-200 watts, and a bass amp(still tubes) 200-500 watts.
One of the most important thing about these amps is the noise. I'm tired of buying amps that got noise. Buzzing, hissing, etc.
How to build a completelly quiet amp that is all quiet with a lot of power.
I only need a clean channel. No need for any gain channel. I got pedals for gain.
I would need advice, schematics, etching transparrents and a lot of people having confidence that I will be able to do this. I will put out pictures and videos of both making it and trying it out.
I really hope someone wants to help me with this.
Sincerely,
John
I'm new at building amps, so I would like some opinions and a little help on how I'm going to proceed.
Me and my band are looking into building some tube amps, one for me(guitar amp), and one for our bassist.
The reason why I want to build this myself is:
1. I'm able to make my own sound the way I want it to sound.
2. The price for a good tubeamp here in Norway is insanely expensive.
3. I would LOVE to be able to build my own tube amps! I love electronics, and I'm currently building some stomp box clones. Lets hope that ends up successful.
Ok, let me explain a little what I want to build.
I wanna build a guitar amp(tubes ofc) around 120-200 watts, and a bass amp(still tubes) 200-500 watts.
One of the most important thing about these amps is the noise. I'm tired of buying amps that got noise. Buzzing, hissing, etc.
How to build a completelly quiet amp that is all quiet with a lot of power.
I only need a clean channel. No need for any gain channel. I got pedals for gain.
I would need advice, schematics, etching transparrents and a lot of people having confidence that I will be able to do this. I will put out pictures and videos of both making it and trying it out.
I really hope someone wants to help me with this.
Sincerely,
John
You can, but looks like you never built tube amps before, so I suggest you go step by step, and readjust your goals a little.
To begin with, the power levels you aim at are not technically impossible but way beyond what's usually reached with Tubes.
It's very easy to get 50W, just 2 6L6/EL34 ; normal to get 100W`( 4 of 6L6/EL34) ... and a nightmare beyond that.
200W tube amps for Guitar is unusable in practice, when necessary all big players use more than one 100W if playing Stadiums and such.
300W is the practical limit for Bass, and that means a very heavy, big and expensive amp, practically impossible for the home builder.
Tube 500W? .... never ever saw one, anywhere on Earth, go figure.
So a realistic setup would be a 50W Guitar amp and a 100W Bass one, given that Bass requires higher power.
To practice, I suggest you build a 5W Guitar amp, some of the AX84 projects, which sound incredibly good, are very well documented, parts are reasonably available, etc.
AX84.com - The Cooperative Tube Guitar Amp Project
There you will practice working with tubes, tweaking for best sound, fighting hum and buzz, etc.
Then you apply that practical knowledge and experience to the larger ones.
There are larger tube amp kits available (Weber, Ceriatone, etc.) but do not get straight into any of them before practicing first with a smaller one.
There's also the problem of parts: I'm certain that in Norway you can get parts for almost any SS amp, but Tube amp parts are very specialized, you will most certainly have to import many from USA or Asia, specially transformers and chassis, bulky and expensive, plus any tax you may have to pay at Customs.
That alone may drive final parts cost way above what you imagine.
To begin with, the power levels you aim at are not technically impossible but way beyond what's usually reached with Tubes.
It's very easy to get 50W, just 2 6L6/EL34 ; normal to get 100W`( 4 of 6L6/EL34) ... and a nightmare beyond that.
200W tube amps for Guitar is unusable in practice, when necessary all big players use more than one 100W if playing Stadiums and such.
300W is the practical limit for Bass, and that means a very heavy, big and expensive amp, practically impossible for the home builder.
Tube 500W? .... never ever saw one, anywhere on Earth, go figure.
So a realistic setup would be a 50W Guitar amp and a 100W Bass one, given that Bass requires higher power.
To practice, I suggest you build a 5W Guitar amp, some of the AX84 projects, which sound incredibly good, are very well documented, parts are reasonably available, etc.
AX84.com - The Cooperative Tube Guitar Amp Project
There you will practice working with tubes, tweaking for best sound, fighting hum and buzz, etc.
Then you apply that practical knowledge and experience to the larger ones.
There are larger tube amp kits available (Weber, Ceriatone, etc.) but do not get straight into any of them before practicing first with a smaller one.
There's also the problem of parts: I'm certain that in Norway you can get parts for almost any SS amp, but Tube amp parts are very specialized, you will most certainly have to import many from USA or Asia, specially transformers and chassis, bulky and expensive, plus any tax you may have to pay at Customs.
That alone may drive final parts cost way above what you imagine.
It can, and has been done, take a look at this web page: Champ 1000 Watt Tube Amp
He has built a monster, 1000W, using 4 x 813 tubes. He also has a 500W version using 2 x 813 tubes. But with 2500 volts on the plates, it sure is'nt for a newbie to try.
He has built a monster, 1000W, using 4 x 813 tubes. He also has a 500W version using 2 x 813 tubes. But with 2500 volts on the plates, it sure is'nt for a newbie to try.
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As JMFahey says, start with something simple. Gain experience there.
Best to ask your questions in the Instruments & Amps forum, not the valve hi-fi forum.
Best to ask your questions in the Instruments & Amps forum, not the valve hi-fi forum.
A hobbyist in Norway could order from Germany, and not pay that much in shipping and no import fees. There are several well stocked webstores that deliver abroad.
What kind of cleans are you looking for?
What kind of cleans are you looking for?
Needing amps for the band, that is how I got started 🙂
One question: what makes you think you need all that much power? Often valve power amps sound much louder than similar powerfull sand amps. Furthermore, the speaker efficiency can make a big difference. For example, my old AC30 with its high efficient alnico speakers can blow away a more powerfull amp with less efficient speakers.
What I did when I got started, was to experiment a bit with guitar preamp designs and a little later my friends and I bought some old power amps to modify to our own taste. It didn't have to be well known brands, just something to experiment on. Look for something that has valves that you are interested in (EL34 most likely in Europe).
Like learning to play an instrument, learning to build amps takes time. Both are great fun 🙂
One question: what makes you think you need all that much power? Often valve power amps sound much louder than similar powerfull sand amps. Furthermore, the speaker efficiency can make a big difference. For example, my old AC30 with its high efficient alnico speakers can blow away a more powerfull amp with less efficient speakers.
What I did when I got started, was to experiment a bit with guitar preamp designs and a little later my friends and I bought some old power amps to modify to our own taste. It didn't have to be well known brands, just something to experiment on. Look for something that has valves that you are interested in (EL34 most likely in Europe).
Like learning to play an instrument, learning to build amps takes time. Both are great fun 🙂
To buy parts I suggest that you take a lok at: Tube-Town GmbH in Germany or: UralTone amplification Web Store - Home page i Finland. They also have some kits for guitar amps, that could be a good thing to start with. In Norway you will get some import fees from these countries as well, but the shipping will be a lot cheaper than from USA.
I live one city block from UralTone. Great service and selection, and the kits are very good.
Isn't Norway inside of European economic area, so there's not supposed to be any fees?
Isn't Norway inside of European economic area, so there's not supposed to be any fees?
Hi MrCurwen,
Yes we are "inside" the European economic area, but not a member of EU, and have some rather strange customs regulations, so there are some fees to be considered (not that big, but still there). The fees isn't very different when ordering from US, but there is a big difference in the shipping costs.
Yes we are "inside" the European economic area, but not a member of EU, and have some rather strange customs regulations, so there are some fees to be considered (not that big, but still there). The fees isn't very different when ordering from US, but there is a big difference in the shipping costs.
If u've only built a few stomp box clones u may need to set ur goal a little more realistic. What on earth makes u think u need that much power?
1. I'm able to make my own sound the way I want it to sound.
Have u ever heard good tone from a 120watt amp? With an amp like that the only variation in tone is from ur pedals. Talk to some people who work as sound men, none of them will allow u to crank the amp till it sounds good (which is when the output stage starts to break up).
2. The price for a good tubeamp here in Norway is insanely expensive.
Building ur own from scratch will cost about the same. Espescially something this big. All the parts need to go thru customs, the size of the transformers will make shipping costly. etc.
3. I would LOVE to be able to build my own tube amps! I love electronics, and I'm currently building some stomp box clones. Lets hope that ends up successful.
Yeah its great fun, but seriously, try something more manageable.
1. I'm able to make my own sound the way I want it to sound.
Have u ever heard good tone from a 120watt amp? With an amp like that the only variation in tone is from ur pedals. Talk to some people who work as sound men, none of them will allow u to crank the amp till it sounds good (which is when the output stage starts to break up).
2. The price for a good tubeamp here in Norway is insanely expensive.
Building ur own from scratch will cost about the same. Espescially something this big. All the parts need to go thru customs, the size of the transformers will make shipping costly. etc.
3. I would LOVE to be able to build my own tube amps! I love electronics, and I'm currently building some stomp box clones. Lets hope that ends up successful.
Yeah its great fun, but seriously, try something more manageable.
How much electronics expertise do you have? Note that there are two kinds of people who build tube amps: (1) the ones who learned how to work safely and (2) the dead ones.
If you have a solid grounding in electronics, tube amps should be pretty simple to understand and easy to build. Even if you don't, it won't take long to pick up what you need to know.
Good grounding and lead dress is what makes a quiet amp. If you can find a layout for the amp you're interested in, that will all have been worked out for you.
It's difficult to understand why you'd need such powerful amps. Do you just want something with enough clean headroom to keep up with a drummer?
If you have a solid grounding in electronics, tube amps should be pretty simple to understand and easy to build. Even if you don't, it won't take long to pick up what you need to know.
Good grounding and lead dress is what makes a quiet amp. If you can find a layout for the amp you're interested in, that will all have been worked out for you.
It's difficult to understand why you'd need such powerful amps. Do you just want something with enough clean headroom to keep up with a drummer?
I think it's awesome you're getting into building your own tube gear, but doing so from a money-saving standpoint is not realistic. I've been at it for a couple of years (started with absolutely no tube experience whatsoever and only little knowledge of electronics) and just now build a bass amp I'm really REALLY content with, but looking back, it probably cost me more than three big-*** Ampeg SVT's! I invested in the necessary equipment, blown up components, several prototypes, PCB's, things I thought I needed but then didn't, etc. etc. etc. It WAS however very(!) rewarding and an invaluable educational experience and it's something that will keep me busy for the rest of my life!
But if your up for it, awesome. Read Merlin Blencowe's 'Designing tube preamps for guitar and bass' and Morgan Jones' 'Valve Amplifiers'. Dig in to this forum, the stickies, and AX84. Tubelab's site is also awesome. Start small with e.g. a preamp and/or low wattage power amp. And remember, there's a lot more to it than just connecting components together following some schematic.
And please, let go of the myth you need 500W for bass guitar. There has been a power battle (literally) between commercial brands to get as much power cramped into their solid state amps as possible. Now everybody thinks 500W is the bare minimum! Together with the fact a solid state amp only delivers its max power into the lowest rated load, while a tube amp will deliver max power in every single load the output transformer is capable of.
With transistors it's a good thing to have loads of headroom, but tube amps don't necessarily. 100/125W is loud and plenty for small gigs/rehearsal. 250W is more than you'll ever need.
But if your up for it, awesome. Read Merlin Blencowe's 'Designing tube preamps for guitar and bass' and Morgan Jones' 'Valve Amplifiers'. Dig in to this forum, the stickies, and AX84. Tubelab's site is also awesome. Start small with e.g. a preamp and/or low wattage power amp. And remember, there's a lot more to it than just connecting components together following some schematic.
And please, let go of the myth you need 500W for bass guitar. There has been a power battle (literally) between commercial brands to get as much power cramped into their solid state amps as possible. Now everybody thinks 500W is the bare minimum! Together with the fact a solid state amp only delivers its max power into the lowest rated load, while a tube amp will deliver max power in every single load the output transformer is capable of.
With transistors it's a good thing to have loads of headroom, but tube amps don't necessarily. 100/125W is loud and plenty for small gigs/rehearsal. 250W is more than you'll ever need.
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Well, IMO, different deal for bass amps, unless you prefer either farty tone or almost non-existent low end response. They are not exactly operated like guitar amps, which can have an ideal tone that resides solely in mid-range and upper frequencies and is distorted beyond belief.
Won't work with bass amps. You need ample headroom and producing those lower frequencies undistorted requires a wealth of more power than producing higher frequencies.
Big Amps
Here's another perspective. I saw bands like Cream back in the day, with a wall of Marshall double stacks, and I had the ringing ears afterward to prove it! OF COURSE Clapton and Bruce (RIP) could get that amazing tone from megawatts, but overdriving a big amp brings nothing but pain and suffering to your audience along with great tone.
Contrast that to the last time I saw Elton John with his band. The two guitars went into Fender Champs! The Champs were miked into the PA. SUBLIME tone, and as loud as you like it.
Think, really think about what you want this rig to do....
Here's another perspective. I saw bands like Cream back in the day, with a wall of Marshall double stacks, and I had the ringing ears afterward to prove it! OF COURSE Clapton and Bruce (RIP) could get that amazing tone from megawatts, but overdriving a big amp brings nothing but pain and suffering to your audience along with great tone.
Contrast that to the last time I saw Elton John with his band. The two guitars went into Fender Champs! The Champs were miked into the PA. SUBLIME tone, and as loud as you like it.
Think, really think about what you want this rig to do....
With a proper output transformer and stiff low output impedance PSU, a tube amp will produce a low E at max rated power all day long. Admittedly, distortion goes up a bit, but that's not necessarily a bad thing 😉.
Best bang-for-the-buck for the bass player would be a solid-state power amp (cheap per watt, bland, lightweight) driven by a valve preamp (as much character as you can build into it). Having experimented over the decades with all-tranny amps through to backbreaking walletbusting Ampeg all-valve bass amps I'm finally happy with my SVP pre and 1kW s/s power amp. And yes you do need more than 100W if you play reggae and/or a 5 string and/or have loud guitarist(s).
Try this: Alembic F-2B preamp | moosapotamus
Try this: Alembic F-2B preamp | moosapotamus
Consider building a couple of pre amp circuits that would interface with a mixer PA system. You'll get experience and the build won't be as complicated, it will be tube and you can build a power amp later.
In the mean time the PA will give you all the power you want in a SS amp.
Ccat.
In the mean time the PA will give you all the power you want in a SS amp.
Ccat.
First bit of advice, start small.
Second bit of advice - don't do it to save money. Unless your time (and from where you are starting, several hundred hours) is free.
And, by the sounds of the numbers your quoting, your biggest problem is inefficient speakers. Which, for your bass player also means getting BIG (google Hoffman's iron law).
Round hereabouts money spent on speaker upgrades is more effective than more tube watts.
So why do you think you need a valve amp? The whole point is about controlling clipping. If you're not clipping the amp go solid state @1kW into some decent (ie >98db/W) speakers.
PS - noise is usually a result of compromises in the preamp - not the amp.
PPS - the higher the peak power, the larger the SNR you need to achieve for the same noise level delivered to the speakers.
If, on reflection,you still want to go valve AND UNDERSTAND WHY start small.
Some sub 10W single ended designs will get your soldering and debugging skills going, along with the associated woodwork/metalwork skills.
Remember, both mains power and B+ will try to kill you if you given them half a chance.
Once you've done a few practice practice amps (and there's some kits on ebay - search for Fender kit amplifier) try some of the following.
Duncan's Blues amp Blues 112
At a pinch you could use some 100V PA iron for the OPT on that.
Dogzilla Introducing DOGZILLA
Frankly, replacing the output stage of Dogzilla with a big Class D will get a lot of bang for the buck - the power and output transformers required for 4 x 807s will kill your budget - the shipping alone is going to be awful.
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