Here's the latest on the Gaincard/ Patek comparison:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/47labs5/gaincard_2.html
Best,
KT
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/47labs5/gaincard_2.html
Best,
KT
Pathetic. After all these years and after all these "clones" no one has yet shown a definitive picture of the public domain insides of the original gaincard. All we have are pics of a sloppy board continuously disclaimed by the manufacturer.
The patek of course looks very nice inside and can be seen to have very expensive parts.
Not surprised of the outcome. Every audio shootout I've seen has ended in a tie. Pathetic.
The patek of course looks very nice inside and can be seen to have very expensive parts.
Not surprised of the outcome. Every audio shootout I've seen has ended in a tie. Pathetic.
Well the outcome was never going to be a suprise. To pick a definitive result would have been lies. It's still an interesting review due to the pic of my amp 😉 - but ultimately to review is only to surmise.
lgreen said:
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/47labs5/gaincard.html
I think the picture at the bottom of the page (see my link) seems to be rather trustworthy.
It seems (from the pictures) that the brass rods are hidden in glue, epoxy. Nasty if you want to open the box. Check the mysterious holes at the bottom and left/right! Pretty easy to see, at least I'll think so.
Member
Joined 2004
I´m almost sure the old pictures that were around are from a real Gaincard. The rods, wiring and attenuators are the same. Just a small thing one makes me doubt about it.
In this picture
the boards are square shaped.
In this one, taken before the revision
the boards look rectangular, just like those in the newer pictures.
Perhaps something went wrong and they were rebuilt by the owner?
In this picture
In this one, taken before the revision
Perhaps something went wrong and they were rebuilt by the owner?
Attachments
That's a keen eye 😉 I'm sure he's laughing at us. Quite impressive that he's kept anyone from getting into one to take independent pics. Good on him.
With all due respect to Yoshi, all the similarities between the official and unofficial photos suggest to me that both are photos of real Gaincards.
I think that photos in question are of an earlier Gaincard. After the negative reaction to the workmanship, I think they went in and revised the insides of the amp. It's not unheard of at all for manufacturers to make changes or adjustments to a product without announcing anything. I think that's what happened here.
Best,
KT
I think that photos in question are of an earlier Gaincard. After the negative reaction to the workmanship, I think they went in and revised the insides of the amp. It's not unheard of at all for manufacturers to make changes or adjustments to a product without announcing anything. I think that's what happened here.
Best,
KT
Anybody care to comment on the 47-labs assembly choices? I'm at the step right now where I'm going from "bunch of circuit boards" to "amplifier" in my own dual monoblock GC. 🙂
I looks as though the input signal wires are twisted around the power ground, and that the power wires are twisted together as well. Is there a reason for that? I was planning on using shielded twisted pair (e.g. microphone cord, music rack cable, etc) for my inputs, and twisting the power wires together (because I've seen that done, not because I fully understand exactly what's going on in terms of wire twisting and EMI). Does the number of twists and spacing matter at these frequencies? The 47-labs stuff looks awfully sloppy.
Hey -- it also looks like a single supply circuit. WTF?
Why kind of pots are those? Step attenuators? Why are there big resistors soldered right to them?
Why did they rip all the labels off the capacitors? Why is there no heat sink? Is that little bitty case enough to dissipate ~60W of heat?
How can they get away with running the input leads in parallel and close proximity with the output leads? Are they not worried about oscillation?
Where is the "star ground"?
Thanks,
Wes
I looks as though the input signal wires are twisted around the power ground, and that the power wires are twisted together as well. Is there a reason for that? I was planning on using shielded twisted pair (e.g. microphone cord, music rack cable, etc) for my inputs, and twisting the power wires together (because I've seen that done, not because I fully understand exactly what's going on in terms of wire twisting and EMI). Does the number of twists and spacing matter at these frequencies? The 47-labs stuff looks awfully sloppy.
Hey -- it also looks like a single supply circuit. WTF?
Why kind of pots are those? Step attenuators? Why are there big resistors soldered right to them?
Why did they rip all the labels off the capacitors? Why is there no heat sink? Is that little bitty case enough to dissipate ~60W of heat?
How can they get away with running the input leads in parallel and close proximity with the output leads? Are they not worried about oscillation?
Where is the "star ground"?
Thanks,
Wes
Hi Wes,
You should be able to find some of those answers on the forum already 😉
A stepped attenuator is made up of a number of carefully chosen resistors: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/project.preamp.html#preampin
There is a supposed benefit in performace in removing the cap sleeves: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52025&highlight=capacitor+sleeve+remove
The heatsink is probably the chassis. The case looks thick enough with enough surface area to be an adequate heatsink.
You should be able to find some of those answers on the forum already 😉
A stepped attenuator is made up of a number of carefully chosen resistors: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/nuukspot/decdun/project.preamp.html#preampin
There is a supposed benefit in performace in removing the cap sleeves: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52025&highlight=capacitor+sleeve+remove
The heatsink is probably the chassis. The case looks thick enough with enough surface area to be an adequate heatsink.
wes-ninja250 said:
Don't know about the other stuff, but my 25watt Gaincard only gets slightly warm even when it's running.
The 50watt GC was another story, though. I owned one for a little while and it got pretty hot. Not hot enough that I heard of any reliability problems, but hotter than I liked (since I kept my unit plugged in all the time).
Best,
KT
Hey, Vikash!
Thanks for the useful links. I've spent about 300 hours now over the last two months reading this forum, but by golly -- there is a lot of information to sift through -- and a fair bit of it is over my head. I've learned one HECK of a lot, though!
I even searched the net the other day for "Cap Skinning" after reading posts by Peter, and Google just asked me if I meant Cat Skinning. At least my dog got excited.
As for the resistors on the stepped attenuator -- HMM! I've never used a S.A. before, I always assumed that they came all ready to go. I wonder if I could make one out of an old television channel dial? That would certainly be interesting.
So, any idea why 47 labs is so lackadaisical with respect to their wire twisting, and why they would twist signal wires with the power ground? That just doesn't make sense to me.
KT -- am I correct in assuming that the Gaincard uses a single supply (per block)? Any idea what voltage it is? Has anybody done listening tests for SS vs. +/- Gaincards?
I just realized, that with a 3875 at 25W output, they could easily get away with 25V rails (or a single 50V supply); That makes Pd only 16W, which would be quite easy to get rid of (6.9 C/W for the T package).
Did you ever figure out why your 50W GC ran so hot? Assuming you were running 35V rails, Pd is 31W, meaning you'd need a 2 C/W heatsink per chip if you had the TF package (3 C/W for the T). Were you refering to chassis or opamp temp? If the latter, if you were using a -T package, perhaps your insulator was not doing a good job conducting heat?
Oh, and Vikash -- while I've got your attention -- how does the pot on your amp work? Sort of like those modern hot-cold faucets? It is certainly visually appealing.
Wes
Thanks for the useful links. I've spent about 300 hours now over the last two months reading this forum, but by golly -- there is a lot of information to sift through -- and a fair bit of it is over my head. I've learned one HECK of a lot, though!
I even searched the net the other day for "Cap Skinning" after reading posts by Peter, and Google just asked me if I meant Cat Skinning. At least my dog got excited.
As for the resistors on the stepped attenuator -- HMM! I've never used a S.A. before, I always assumed that they came all ready to go. I wonder if I could make one out of an old television channel dial? That would certainly be interesting.
So, any idea why 47 labs is so lackadaisical with respect to their wire twisting, and why they would twist signal wires with the power ground? That just doesn't make sense to me.
KT -- am I correct in assuming that the Gaincard uses a single supply (per block)? Any idea what voltage it is? Has anybody done listening tests for SS vs. +/- Gaincards?
I just realized, that with a 3875 at 25W output, they could easily get away with 25V rails (or a single 50V supply); That makes Pd only 16W, which would be quite easy to get rid of (6.9 C/W for the T package).
Did you ever figure out why your 50W GC ran so hot? Assuming you were running 35V rails, Pd is 31W, meaning you'd need a 2 C/W heatsink per chip if you had the TF package (3 C/W for the T). Were you refering to chassis or opamp temp? If the latter, if you were using a -T package, perhaps your insulator was not doing a good job conducting heat?
Oh, and Vikash -- while I've got your attention -- how does the pot on your amp work? Sort of like those modern hot-cold faucets? It is certainly visually appealing.
Wes
TATCA had a DIY SA (Decibel Dungeon). Overall having such limited steps doesn't appeal to me. My other amps all use those little green pots. Not sure about relating any of them to faucets though 😉wes-ninja250 said:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Has anyone compared the gaincard to "T" amps like modded SI, 41hz, or Charlize? I'm trying to decide which way to go and the "T" amp looks simpler.
Will be using with a single driver 8 ohm TB in 2.5 liter cabinet. 6-10 watts should be plenty as I'm only on 15 / 34 in my Denon UD-M31 mini system amp now.
Thanks
Will be using with a single driver 8 ohm TB in 2.5 liter cabinet. 6-10 watts should be plenty as I'm only on 15 / 34 in my Denon UD-M31 mini system amp now.
Thanks
PauSim said:
That IS a very keen eye you have. I didn't even notice what you were pointing out until I went back and stumbled on it.
You're right. Kimura is, indeed, working on a Gaincard and the boards look rectangular. In fact, aren't they even more rectangular and bigger than those in the current "official" photos?
I recall seeing this picture Kimura a number of years ago, so if they switched to a different board they must have done so early on. That suggests that the boards in the mystery photos may have been a very early version of the Gaincard. Perhaps. It's also possible that there are any number of board revisions. For example, the Brian GT LM3875 boards are already on v.3, all a little bit different.
Wes, from taking apart the Humpty, I can tell you that it uses a standard bridge rectifier that powers both channels.
I didn't do any math, just powered the 50watt Gaincard with a the 50watt Humpty. It ran signicantly hotter than the 25watt Gaincard with the same 50watt Humpty (the configuration Yoshi suggested as sounding the best). When I have this configuration up and running, I don't worry about heat or reliability at all.
Best,
KT
lgreen said:
Maybe this could provide more insight: 😉
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bo05/srajan.html
The final chapter has been written: the conclusion of Srajan's in-depth, head-to-head comparison of the original Gaincard with the finest "Gainclone," Peter Daniel's Patek.
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/47labs5/gaincard_3.html
And it looks like we have a new champion! Peter's Patek cleans up in the shootout!
All you guy's who have complained about the the Gaincard being too expensive for what it was, this is what you've been waiting for - a competing product that offers as good or better performance and workmanship at a much better price.
Also, the debate about the Gaincard pictures is officially solved. They were of an earlier version of the Gaincard according to the review.
On Yoshi's part, I thought his response was introspective and humble. Looks like 47 Labs will do some rethinking an innovating to come up with something new and worthy. Good guy, that Yoshi.
As for me (a Gaincard owner), I still love the look, feel, and sound of my Gaincard and am happy with it. Now that Peter has bettered it, however, I feel I can open it up without too much worry and do some tweaking to try to improve the sound. Peter has, indeed, broken through the mystique of the Gaincard and shown that the DIY community can really move mountains in the audio world. Wonderful!
Best,
KT
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/47labs5/gaincard_3.html
And it looks like we have a new champion! Peter's Patek cleans up in the shootout!
All you guy's who have complained about the the Gaincard being too expensive for what it was, this is what you've been waiting for - a competing product that offers as good or better performance and workmanship at a much better price.
Also, the debate about the Gaincard pictures is officially solved. They were of an earlier version of the Gaincard according to the review.
On Yoshi's part, I thought his response was introspective and humble. Looks like 47 Labs will do some rethinking an innovating to come up with something new and worthy. Good guy, that Yoshi.
As for me (a Gaincard owner), I still love the look, feel, and sound of my Gaincard and am happy with it. Now that Peter has bettered it, however, I feel I can open it up without too much worry and do some tweaking to try to improve the sound. Peter has, indeed, broken through the mystique of the Gaincard and shown that the DIY community can really move mountains in the audio world. Wonderful!
Best,
KT
Well, I might say that I’m committing a marketing suicide as well. That was not to be intended as a production amp, but more of a showpiece what is possible when one puts imagination and creativity into work.
It all started about two years ago, when mostly out of curiosity, I’ve built an amp that was very much inspired by a Gaincard and resembled it closely. This created some controversy over at AA, and during that time I had some rather friendly e-mail exchanges with Yoshi. It was his words that inspired me to get beyond just copying others product and create an amplifier, that at least from the outside, is original, with character and style. As he put it then, if Gaincard is a Rolex of chip amps, why not create a different watch, not merely a Rolex replica, hence the Patek name 😉
But it wasn’t until this summer, that Srajan asked me to build a pair of monoblocks for his personal use, and Patek became a product. Up till then, for more than a year, it was simply a concept amp, decorating front page of my website.
While Srajan mentioned he would be perfectly happy with the amp that I created originally, building it for a publisher of a most popular online audio site, I thought I should do better, and went for more unique building techniques. Well, I didn’t really anticipate that this might actually become a commercial product, until orders started rolling in.
I’d say, if this was made in Japan, imported to America and sold through the dealer channels, the price should be actually much more than $3,300 of the Gaincard. 😉
Well, even at current price of $1800, it shouldn’t create much competition for a Gaincard, as I’m only able to build about 3 amps per month. As Patek watches, the Patek amp is hand made, and I mean here each individual part, without exception.
It all started about two years ago, when mostly out of curiosity, I’ve built an amp that was very much inspired by a Gaincard and resembled it closely. This created some controversy over at AA, and during that time I had some rather friendly e-mail exchanges with Yoshi. It was his words that inspired me to get beyond just copying others product and create an amplifier, that at least from the outside, is original, with character and style. As he put it then, if Gaincard is a Rolex of chip amps, why not create a different watch, not merely a Rolex replica, hence the Patek name 😉
But it wasn’t until this summer, that Srajan asked me to build a pair of monoblocks for his personal use, and Patek became a product. Up till then, for more than a year, it was simply a concept amp, decorating front page of my website.
While Srajan mentioned he would be perfectly happy with the amp that I created originally, building it for a publisher of a most popular online audio site, I thought I should do better, and went for more unique building techniques. Well, I didn’t really anticipate that this might actually become a commercial product, until orders started rolling in.
I’d say, if this was made in Japan, imported to America and sold through the dealer channels, the price should be actually much more than $3,300 of the Gaincard. 😉
Well, even at current price of $1800, it shouldn’t create much competition for a Gaincard, as I’m only able to build about 3 amps per month. As Patek watches, the Patek amp is hand made, and I mean here each individual part, without exception.
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