My journey of using small full range drivers for HF duties has only started in the last year or so. Currently using Fostex ff85wk/SB Acoustic SB13PFCR25-8. Presently I'm crossing high but am also experimenting crossing low around 350 or so. I realize I might be talking heresy but for those that also listen to a lot of classical music, have you found the sparkle of strings and brass slightly veiled when compared to a traditional tweeter? My lineup of traditional tweeters involves a Focal TC90TDX and some Elac products. My implementation of the Fostex may be lacking and I have no measuring/designing capability other than what I can plagarize from forums like this. However, I do have a little background in listening because I was a public school band director for 36 years. Thanks for any and all suggestions.
I think it is to be expected that a full range cannot out match the best of tweeters out there. A good 3" full range like your ff85 can best some of them but definitely not all of them.... My take on this and what I have done is just to get a small high sensitivity 1/2 inch tweeter ( 1/2 inch sound better than 1" in the high treble region) put a 1-2uF ( adjust to taste) and face it backwards to the wall or upwards to the ceiling.
A few tweeters I have experimented and worked well Visaton SC5, Beston RTC 003 ribbon. Most will fit. Choose one with a sensitivity of 90+ db in the region of 10-20kHz. This will help imitate the 360 degree field of normal instruments and give you a more live feel. Something your experience will clearly appreciate...
Angling your speakers in to face you will also help and will change the sound field.
Oon
A few tweeters I have experimented and worked well Visaton SC5, Beston RTC 003 ribbon. Most will fit. Choose one with a sensitivity of 90+ db in the region of 10-20kHz. This will help imitate the 360 degree field of normal instruments and give you a more live feel. Something your experience will clearly appreciate...
Angling your speakers in to face you will also help and will change the sound field.
Oon
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For the best part of the last decade I’ve quite enjoyed the “WAW / FAST” approach; using 3 - 4” FR drivers the likes of FF85K/FF85WK or Alpair 7.3 and various combinations of midwoofers, crossed over as low as 250ish or so, with either active or passive line level XO and bi-amping, or high level passive XO and single amp per channel.
I also have a more conventional MTM with 5” wideband drivers and 1” soft dome and passive XO.
I guess this is a case where the combination of age and industrial work noise related HF hearing loss reveals a bit of a silver lining, but I don’t miss a lot when I switch from the latter to the former.
I also have a more conventional MTM with 5” wideband drivers and 1” soft dome and passive XO.
I guess this is a case where the combination of age and industrial work noise related HF hearing loss reveals a bit of a silver lining, but I don’t miss a lot when I switch from the latter to the former.
I think it's a matter of preferences and which fullrange is used in which config.
My Alpair 10.3 has stood years next to a set of mint Goodman Mezzo SL's with the infamous Seas H087 Dome Tweeters and i prefered the fullrange highs as they are more pleasing, also for classical music. And those are bigger than most use for a waw setup. And i hear rather good up high for my age.
But if you prefer a dome tweeter, that is your choice. Some prefer that, others prefer no crossover that high. Hifi is never perfect, it's a matter of choices what compromise is more important for you.
Btw: i'm busy with some multiway speakers also (still in dev phase), i like to have both so i can choose. And my good old Goodmans are still in use as bedroom speakers.
My Alpair 10.3 has stood years next to a set of mint Goodman Mezzo SL's with the infamous Seas H087 Dome Tweeters and i prefered the fullrange highs as they are more pleasing, also for classical music. And those are bigger than most use for a waw setup. And i hear rather good up high for my age.
But if you prefer a dome tweeter, that is your choice. Some prefer that, others prefer no crossover that high. Hifi is never perfect, it's a matter of choices what compromise is more important for you.
Btw: i'm busy with some multiway speakers also (still in dev phase), i like to have both so i can choose. And my good old Goodmans are still in use as bedroom speakers.
I vote for building both, level match them and let your ears decide which you like best =)
In the end it is all about tradeoffs. A dome tweeter will be a better tweeter than a ff85wk. But at the same time the dome will require you to cross it in the 1-2 khz region where the ear is the most sensitive. The ff85wk maybe just has to be a good enough tweeter while avoiding a crossover might be worth more.
I haven't tested the ff85wk myself but I have played around with the sb65wbac25 which is a similarily sized FR driver and I think they sound really nice when I listen to them. I don't feel there is something missing so good enough as a tweeter to my ears. It also helps that the FR drivers avoid the whole off-axis bloom that plague domes unless you use large waveguides but then you get other problems like lobing since they are quite far apart.
In the end it is all about tradeoffs. A dome tweeter will be a better tweeter than a ff85wk. But at the same time the dome will require you to cross it in the 1-2 khz region where the ear is the most sensitive. The ff85wk maybe just has to be a good enough tweeter while avoiding a crossover might be worth more.
I haven't tested the ff85wk myself but I have played around with the sb65wbac25 which is a similarily sized FR driver and I think they sound really nice when I listen to them. I don't feel there is something missing so good enough as a tweeter to my ears. It also helps that the FR drivers avoid the whole off-axis bloom that plague domes unless you use large waveguides but then you get other problems like lobing since they are quite far apart.
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Ignoring the dispersion difference, i can only think that a 3" allows what a tweet has trouble with.
1. 6db crossovers
2. Lower crossover point.
3" has low fs (ideally 2.5 octaves below crossover point), and would be rugged in comparison to most tweets crossed similarly.
1. 6db crossovers
2. Lower crossover point.
3" has low fs (ideally 2.5 octaves below crossover point), and would be rugged in comparison to most tweets crossed similarly.
The ear is most sensitive at ~3kHz, or more broadly the 2-4kHz octave. A crossover here is likely to be problematic. Any 2nd or higher order crossover is unable to recombine properly (either acoustically or electrically) because of with the inherent power response anomaly of all crossovers of order higher than 1, irrespective of the type Butterworth, Bessel, Linkwitz-Riley, etc.
On the other hand some full range drivers have in effect a mechanical crossover which can also introduce response anomalies. I don't play with full range drivers these days, but a common trick in the past was the peak the high frequencies by designing a broad dust cap resonance, which to my ear sounds awful.
On the other hand some full range drivers have in effect a mechanical crossover which can also introduce response anomalies. I don't play with full range drivers these days, but a common trick in the past was the peak the high frequencies by designing a broad dust cap resonance, which to my ear sounds awful.
TubaV, you might consider doing some EQ so you can understand whether it is simply a case of the amount of treble, or a simple resonance, or perhaps some other inherent property of the driver which you have less control over.
I don't believe this is the case.
In addition to notches in the power response, crossovers of order greater than 1 are not able to recombine in the time domain to recreate an output which is a facsimile of the input. In other words, the recombined outputs sound different to the inputed signal.
There is an easy experiment conducted with a programable active crossover. Compared the sound of the recombined output (using a mixer) with the sound of the input for any crossover you care to use. Only a first order crossover doesn't change the recombined sound compared to the input sound.
The following link may help with technical explanations:
Power2
John K's description does not mention first order filters. Except to suggest, for eg, that Butterworth (such as 1st and 3rd) have similarities, and that lower orders have a wider overlap.
In other words group delay varies, audibility is something else altogether. In any case, it only applies at one point in space.