Disclaimer. The following was written by ChatGPT. I did it because my written English sucks
Hello fellow DIY speaker enthusiasts,
I've noticed a growing trend in our community where many of us are building active speakers with DSP using miniDSP and low-cost Class D amplifiers. This setup is undeniably cost-effective and provides a great entry point for anyone looking to dip their toes into the world of active speaker building.
However, it got me thinking: what would happen if we took our builds to the next level with higher-end components? Specifically, I'm curious about the potential sound quality improvements when using a good DAC, high-quality cables, and Class A or A/B amplifiers instead of the typical Class D amps.
The Current Standard: MiniDSP and Class D Amplifiers
For those who might not be familiar, miniDSP is a popular choice because it's affordable, versatile, and relatively easy to use. It allows us to implement sophisticated digital signal processing (DSP) in our speaker systems, fine-tuning the crossover points, EQ, and time alignment to our liking. Coupled with Class D amplifiers, which are efficient and budget-friendly, this setup offers a compelling balance of performance and cost.
Considering High-End Upgrades
1. Digital-to-Analog Converter (DAC):
- Why Upgrade? A high-quality DAC can provide a cleaner, more detailed signal, reducing noise and distortion that might be present in more budget-oriented options.
- Potential Impact:** Improved clarity, better separation of instruments, and a more precise soundstage.
2. Amplification: Class A or A/B Amplifiers:
- Why Upgrade? Class A and A/B amplifiers are renowned for their superior sound quality, particularly in terms of warmth, richness, and dynamic range. They tend to offer lower distortion and better linearity compared to Class D amps.
- Potential Impact: A more natural and engaging listening experience, with enhanced detail and depth in the music.
3. Cabling:
- Why Upgrade? While the debate on the impact of cables is ongoing, higher-quality cables can offer better shielding and lower resistance, potentially reducing signal loss and interference.
- Potential Impact: Subtle improvements in sound purity and consistency, although this might be less noticeable compared to DAC and amplification upgrades.
Hypothesized Benefits
By integrating a high-end DAC and Class A or A/B amplifiers into our active speaker setups, we might experience several notable improvements:
Real-World Testing and Comparisons
Of course, these are hypothetical benefits, and the best way to understand the impact of these upgrades is through real-world testing. I'm eager to hear from anyone who has experimented with high-end components in their active speaker builds. Have you noticed significant improvements? What components did you find to offer the best return on investment?
Conclusion
While miniDSP and Class D amplifiers offer a fantastic starting point, exploring higher-end components like a good DAC, high-quality cables, and Class A or A/B amplifiers could elevate our DIY speaker projects to new heights. I'm excited to hear your thoughts, experiences, and any recommendations you might have for those considering these upgrades.
Happy building and listening!
Best regards,
Martin
Hello fellow DIY speaker enthusiasts,
I've noticed a growing trend in our community where many of us are building active speakers with DSP using miniDSP and low-cost Class D amplifiers. This setup is undeniably cost-effective and provides a great entry point for anyone looking to dip their toes into the world of active speaker building.
However, it got me thinking: what would happen if we took our builds to the next level with higher-end components? Specifically, I'm curious about the potential sound quality improvements when using a good DAC, high-quality cables, and Class A or A/B amplifiers instead of the typical Class D amps.
The Current Standard: MiniDSP and Class D Amplifiers
For those who might not be familiar, miniDSP is a popular choice because it's affordable, versatile, and relatively easy to use. It allows us to implement sophisticated digital signal processing (DSP) in our speaker systems, fine-tuning the crossover points, EQ, and time alignment to our liking. Coupled with Class D amplifiers, which are efficient and budget-friendly, this setup offers a compelling balance of performance and cost.
Considering High-End Upgrades
1. Digital-to-Analog Converter (DAC):
- Why Upgrade? A high-quality DAC can provide a cleaner, more detailed signal, reducing noise and distortion that might be present in more budget-oriented options.
- Potential Impact:** Improved clarity, better separation of instruments, and a more precise soundstage.
2. Amplification: Class A or A/B Amplifiers:
- Why Upgrade? Class A and A/B amplifiers are renowned for their superior sound quality, particularly in terms of warmth, richness, and dynamic range. They tend to offer lower distortion and better linearity compared to Class D amps.
- Potential Impact: A more natural and engaging listening experience, with enhanced detail and depth in the music.
3. Cabling:
- Why Upgrade? While the debate on the impact of cables is ongoing, higher-quality cables can offer better shielding and lower resistance, potentially reducing signal loss and interference.
- Potential Impact: Subtle improvements in sound purity and consistency, although this might be less noticeable compared to DAC and amplification upgrades.
Hypothesized Benefits
By integrating a high-end DAC and Class A or A/B amplifiers into our active speaker setups, we might experience several notable improvements:
- Enhanced Resolution: More detailed and accurate sound reproduction.
- Improved Dynamics: Better handling of the dynamic range in music, leading to more impactful crescendos and delicate passages.
- Greater Musicality: A richer, more engaging listening experience that captures the emotional essence of the music.
Real-World Testing and Comparisons
Of course, these are hypothetical benefits, and the best way to understand the impact of these upgrades is through real-world testing. I'm eager to hear from anyone who has experimented with high-end components in their active speaker builds. Have you noticed significant improvements? What components did you find to offer the best return on investment?
Conclusion
While miniDSP and Class D amplifiers offer a fantastic starting point, exploring higher-end components like a good DAC, high-quality cables, and Class A or A/B amplifiers could elevate our DIY speaker projects to new heights. I'm excited to hear your thoughts, experiences, and any recommendations you might have for those considering these upgrades.
Happy building and listening!
Best regards,
Martin
Hi Martin, unfortunately I think ChatGPT has removed whatever points that you were trying to make - other than upgrading to better components yields better sound.
If you are not comfortable writing in English I suggest you use a straightforward translator to translate your posts from Danish, as that will probably allow more of your actual (human) intelligence to shine through 🙂
If you are not comfortable writing in English I suggest you use a straightforward translator to translate your posts from Danish, as that will probably allow more of your actual (human) intelligence to shine through 🙂
Lower distortion?
<0.00006% @ 100W, 4Ω, 1kHz the 1ET9040Ba is better than any class A or AB for THD...
https://purifi-audio.com/document/share/59/a82eb980-951a-4387-85ce-43caaa1e5c2e
Like @Nisbeth said
ChatGPT, especially if you are using the unpaid version, is plenty of garbage. The only way to get good stuff from it is with multiple iterations with quality prompts. IMHO
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Thanks, I am looking for someone that has taken the journey from miniDSP or something similar to high end components.
If cost was no object, then why not use 3 holo audio may KTE and 3 stereo tube amps for a 3-way speaker?
If cost was no object, then why not use 3 holo audio may KTE and 3 stereo tube amps for a 3-way speaker?
Well if cost is no object this might be of interest: https://pureacouratesound.com/ They use OKTODACs with Acourate DSP.
Another good DPS solution that you can use with the integrated AKM4499ex DACS is the Danville Nexus: https://danvillesignal.com/dspnexus-dsp-audio-processor
The Danville is closer to 3K If memory serves me right and its apparently a very big step up from current miniDSP offering.
Another good DPS solution that you can use with the integrated AKM4499ex DACS is the Danville Nexus: https://danvillesignal.com/dspnexus-dsp-audio-processor
The Danville is closer to 3K If memory serves me right and its apparently a very big step up from current miniDSP offering.
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Can confirm positive benefits for all the above listed plans. Ive used a minidsp 4x10 in a 3 way active setup for more than 6 years.
I built some Pass F5 amps to power midrange and tweeters and used Hypex NC400 on woofers. Cabling has been Furutech Alpha AG silver coax.
I'm of the opinion that the simple matter of moving to active exceeds the effects of a higher end dac in a passive setup.
It seems like many think all they need is a digital crossover, add some generic slopes and off you go. When it comes to DSP of bass this is far from the truth. I have not found a better "high end" solution which bests the options available in DSP programming of minidsp. Now a big requirement for me is the need for an analog input to accomodate phono. Not many options for that and I would admit a pure digital solution using Accourate or Audiolens with an 8 channel pro interface like the Merging Hapi could be better.
I have recently acquired the matching 300B amp which was originally designed for my speaker system. So now I have a pure analog crossover built into the amp between tube stages. Minidsp processes all the sophisticated baffle step, gain and EQ.
Most people want to be able to swap components to suit their taste. Those who go active often want simplicity and products offered like Dynaudio Focus XD or certain pro products fill that niche.
What you propose of multiple DACs requires a DSP with 3-4 digital outputs and the needed on board processing. Obviously the demand is not there in the market otherwise someone would have filled the void.
No longer in business because the product was too special to really be appreciated in the wider market. It hits every point you mention and is regarded as one of the best complete turnkey system produced in the past few decades.
Aurum Acoustics 300B Active System
I built some Pass F5 amps to power midrange and tweeters and used Hypex NC400 on woofers. Cabling has been Furutech Alpha AG silver coax.
I'm of the opinion that the simple matter of moving to active exceeds the effects of a higher end dac in a passive setup.
It seems like many think all they need is a digital crossover, add some generic slopes and off you go. When it comes to DSP of bass this is far from the truth. I have not found a better "high end" solution which bests the options available in DSP programming of minidsp. Now a big requirement for me is the need for an analog input to accomodate phono. Not many options for that and I would admit a pure digital solution using Accourate or Audiolens with an 8 channel pro interface like the Merging Hapi could be better.
I have recently acquired the matching 300B amp which was originally designed for my speaker system. So now I have a pure analog crossover built into the amp between tube stages. Minidsp processes all the sophisticated baffle step, gain and EQ.
Most people want to be able to swap components to suit their taste. Those who go active often want simplicity and products offered like Dynaudio Focus XD or certain pro products fill that niche.
What you propose of multiple DACs requires a DSP with 3-4 digital outputs and the needed on board processing. Obviously the demand is not there in the market otherwise someone would have filled the void.
No longer in business because the product was too special to really be appreciated in the wider market. It hits every point you mention and is regarded as one of the best complete turnkey system produced in the past few decades.
Aurum Acoustics 300B Active System
Until you start to operate with numbers, you will not be able to get a clear answer to your questions.
In terms of active speakers, if the amplifiers have the same output impedance and the same nonlinear distortion, then it makes absolutely no difference which amplifier will work on the speakers of the active speaker.
You believe that if you put a certain obviously good amplifier on each speaker, the sound quality will automatically become better, in fact, everything is much more complicated than you want. If we are talking about listening to music in a closed room, then you should understand that the speaker works together with the room, it is one whole, and a lot depends on how you match your speaker with the room and with the box in which the speakers are located. Cables and amplification in this regard are the smallest problem of all those problems that need to be solved first.
Let's say this way, if your room resonates like a pipe, and the speakers distort the signal two orders of magnitude more than the amplifier, then installing an amplifier and a DAC of a higher class will not change the situation. A lot depends on how the room affects the sound and how you set up the active speaker.
You probably had not searched for pro products as there was a bunch of loudspeaker management units availlable way above what minidsp have to offer (from hardware or processing power pov).
Not same pricerange though.
Market have changed in the last ten years and if you want to invest into a loudspeaker management unit right now (for home use) nothing can beat a computer and a pro multichanel interface/soundcard: it's evolutive and not limited by hardware (as anything can be changed if you feel the need for it and computers processing power is way above what is needed by anything audio).
About cables: if you use something 'standard' ( eg: Mogami w3104/w2921/w2972) there is nothing to gain there (especially in a multiamp setup)... except a much lighter wallet.
This is true but the ideal is a stand alone box with all necessary hardware on board. Id prefer not to have to mess with analog signal routing into PC via various ASIO.
Even something as simple as switching between analog and digital (streaming) source would be a chore. Building up the convolution filters and loading them into HQPlayer takes time and skill.
What external stand alone DSP allows for something like Audiolens or Accourate to create the appropriate biquads and can have them uploaded into the processor. MiniDSP advanced mode allows for this. Having simple loudspeaker management functions like 4th order LR or basic PEQ is not enough for me. I want to be able to stack filters or have the option for FIR from the powerful DSP programs then rely on simple hardware.
The only connection to PC should be from the digital streaming source via network bridge/streaming end point.
Even something as simple as switching between analog and digital (streaming) source would be a chore. Building up the convolution filters and loading them into HQPlayer takes time and skill.
What external stand alone DSP allows for something like Audiolens or Accourate to create the appropriate biquads and can have them uploaded into the processor. MiniDSP advanced mode allows for this. Having simple loudspeaker management functions like 4th order LR or basic PEQ is not enough for me. I want to be able to stack filters or have the option for FIR from the powerful DSP programs then rely on simple hardware.
The only connection to PC should be from the digital streaming source via network bridge/streaming end point.
Like previously stated...The Danville Nexus allows for all of it, fully integrated and much, much better SQ than any MiniDSP.
Active speaker of normal dimensions have not found a grip in high end, because you can not show your expensive amplifier / whatever stuff, play around and change components. It has nothing to do with sound quality. How poor does a computer with some soundcard and a bunch of cheap D-amps look.
This discussion, "what would change if we took high end components for active speaker" can be answered quite shortly. If "cheap" components are choosen carefully and replaced by expensive ones, nothing.
An ICE power D-amp is soo cheap that any highender would cry, but will be the perfect match for any active speaker. Just like a well executed TPA3255 will serve the most expensive speaker chassis.
A high quality, 2€ per meter audio cable does anything just as good (or better) than any exotic, ridiculous expensive nord, south, east or west wire.
If you don't want to fool yourself, which is a well established hobby, some even say central to regular high end HIFI, you would have to first find better components in separate tests. So take the "cheap" ICE-power or chip amp and have it checked against your Class A valve heater. Take the one that sounds better. If you can find it without knowing what playing, in the A-B comparison. Maybe have both amps drive a well made full range speaker, which comes nearest to actively driving chassis. I will wait for the result...
If you have closely followed, what such cheap, industrial amps, with some alibi modifications, have scored, only build into expensive housings, you know the result before the test has started.
This discussion, "what would change if we took high end components for active speaker" can be answered quite shortly. If "cheap" components are choosen carefully and replaced by expensive ones, nothing.
An ICE power D-amp is soo cheap that any highender would cry, but will be the perfect match for any active speaker. Just like a well executed TPA3255 will serve the most expensive speaker chassis.
A high quality, 2€ per meter audio cable does anything just as good (or better) than any exotic, ridiculous expensive nord, south, east or west wire.
If you don't want to fool yourself, which is a well established hobby, some even say central to regular high end HIFI, you would have to first find better components in separate tests. So take the "cheap" ICE-power or chip amp and have it checked against your Class A valve heater. Take the one that sounds better. If you can find it without knowing what playing, in the A-B comparison. Maybe have both amps drive a well made full range speaker, which comes nearest to actively driving chassis. I will wait for the result...
If you have closely followed, what such cheap, industrial amps, with some alibi modifications, have scored, only build into expensive housings, you know the result before the test has started.
Various Asio drivers? Why would you need multiple ASIO drivers?
1 box ideal for what use? Too many assumptions ( and some are wrong) in my view.
Hummm... pushing some virtual switch would be a chore? 🙄
I disagree with your view about filters too: a simple xover takes something like 10mn to setup with a freeware like Rephase.
In my view you overcomplicate things.
There is nothing really complicated in a solution like this ( even the vst host is bundled): https://accuratesound.ca/hang-loose-convolver-hlc/
Biquad? Why should it be so not user friendly? A mic, an rta and some elaborate eq and you are done... what we use to set up sound system profesionally.
You don't seems to have ever seen a pro unit: my own LMU offer way more eq by way i could ever use to set up a whole 5 or 6 way system, limiters, all pass filters, FIR, IIR, delay,.... with ADC/DAC on par with dedicated units ( compared to Lavry, Cranesongs, Antelope,...), with AES or Dante if i would use other dacs, Wordclock,... i don't use 5% of it's capacity... and it's 20 years old unit. There is some more recent tools which are way more powerful...
Digital Room Correction is a part of dsp family but it's in no way mandatory to set up a system in my view. Could help yes, given you know what you are doing, you master measurement techniques and their interpretation,... iow it's advanced technique.
Why? Not that i'm in disagreement with you but when you buy an advanced DRC like Trinnov what do you think you have: a pc with a set of ADC/DAC running a dedicated software under a stable and limited ( dedicated) OS ( Linux)...
What method allows the continued use of Roon for streaming to a digital input and separate physical switch to select analog input. All dsp inside unit itself with only USB needed to connect for file modification. Minidsp SHD is the likely step for me up from the prior 4x10.
Danville looks promising but the 4 channel dac version not available yet.
Danville looks promising but the 4 channel dac version not available yet.
Some virtual audio loopback drivers?
I think you can enter Jriver from Roon. From there load HLC as vst into JRiver.
I think you can enter Jriver from Roon. From there load HLC as vst into JRiver.
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I have a set of older Martin Logan Aerius I's with no passive crossovers running off a Dayton 4X8 DSP unit, Jeff Rowland Model 1 for the panels and a Crown XLS Class D amp for the bass drivers. I think for most active speaker applications class D is the way to go though, the newer class D stuff is really good and each amplifier is being used in a narrow bandwidth so the load being presented to the amplifier isn't a big deal.
It is available for up to 8 channel. If I may, I'd suggest a more nuanced approach towards stuff when unsure...🤔
Danville has 3 different Nexus products listed the 8, 4 and 2 channel versions. They first appeared on the scene in 2020/2021 (though been making Air Traffic Control product for decades). Only now in late 2023 and 2024 have they been promoting early adopter specials. I explained my amps do crossover for mid and tweeter internally and the need will be met with one stereo DAC with flat output and the other with DSP crossover and EQ.
No need for me to be nuanced, I'm voicing my opinion there is a group of people who do not want to engage in any way with professional audio interfaces and trying to route external analog (or even digital source) inputs through various plug ins, feeding Roon to HQ Player or Jriver.
Audio Weaver is a tremendously powerful app that as far as I see is a licensed product. Does the purchase of a Danville unit come with a limited user license for diy purposes? Is there no recurring annual fees to continue to use the program.
No need for me to be nuanced, I'm voicing my opinion there is a group of people who do not want to engage in any way with professional audio interfaces and trying to route external analog (or even digital source) inputs through various plug ins, feeding Roon to HQ Player or Jriver.
Audio Weaver is a tremendously powerful app that as far as I see is a licensed product. Does the purchase of a Danville unit come with a limited user license for diy purposes? Is there no recurring annual fees to continue to use the program.
Pure simplicity. Not having to worry about the state of my PC or being able to use it for its intended purpose of gaming while not having to concern myself that there is enough horsepower in reserve to also do convolution on 192khz filters.
A reduction in total amount of cables. No need to run 15-20 ft USB or analog cable to a different room where PC resides. Simple graphical interface offered by minidsp or Hypex filter designer. One dial to rotate and select from spdif/aes digital or analog in.
I also wish to perform bass crossover independent of a total DSP pass including room correction. I do not understand how performing a measurement on a woofer in my room gets me anywhere close to the designer's original response intended for the woofer.
If you haven't yet, please take a moment to go through the manufacturer page for my system. The woofer is a 10 inch sealed enclosure isolated from the top half of the cabinet.
When I acquired the speakers the designer gave me details of how the original crossover was implemented line level with opamps. It was made by stacking several second order crossovers and applying PEQ for baffle step correction along with boosting gain in the 20-30hz region.
Recently since getting the 300B amp I brought my DSP to him where we measured the output and compared the result to his original design curves. As needed I modified the biquads in minidsp advanced mode and processed the result. It was very seamless and straightforward to copy and paste the biquad coefficients, process them, and get not only a visual result on the minidsp window but correlated to a measurement in his LMS system.
What I struggle with is the idea that throwing a measurement mic 1m in front of the woofer in my room and hitting measure/process will result in anything near what the original circuit was producing. I will post later the specific filters needed to form the response. If there is a simple way to implement I'm all for it.
Ideal for me is to be presented something in Roon or a remote app which allows to turn off digital streaming and then have the analog audio input of an interface routed to the same filters used to convolve the crossover needed for bass. No messing around with signal matrix.
Id be prepared to do the legwork as long as the end result could be used by a 10 year old child without ever having to look at a PC monitor. Back in the day I had a TC Impact Twin feeding raw balanced phono and using Pure Vinyl to do digital RIAA. The back and forth became too cumbersome and between drivers, firmware and scattered app crash it became tiresome.
A reduction in total amount of cables. No need to run 15-20 ft USB or analog cable to a different room where PC resides. Simple graphical interface offered by minidsp or Hypex filter designer. One dial to rotate and select from spdif/aes digital or analog in.
I also wish to perform bass crossover independent of a total DSP pass including room correction. I do not understand how performing a measurement on a woofer in my room gets me anywhere close to the designer's original response intended for the woofer.
If you haven't yet, please take a moment to go through the manufacturer page for my system. The woofer is a 10 inch sealed enclosure isolated from the top half of the cabinet.
When I acquired the speakers the designer gave me details of how the original crossover was implemented line level with opamps. It was made by stacking several second order crossovers and applying PEQ for baffle step correction along with boosting gain in the 20-30hz region.
Recently since getting the 300B amp I brought my DSP to him where we measured the output and compared the result to his original design curves. As needed I modified the biquads in minidsp advanced mode and processed the result. It was very seamless and straightforward to copy and paste the biquad coefficients, process them, and get not only a visual result on the minidsp window but correlated to a measurement in his LMS system.
What I struggle with is the idea that throwing a measurement mic 1m in front of the woofer in my room and hitting measure/process will result in anything near what the original circuit was producing. I will post later the specific filters needed to form the response. If there is a simple way to implement I'm all for it.
Ideal for me is to be presented something in Roon or a remote app which allows to turn off digital streaming and then have the analog audio input of an interface routed to the same filters used to convolve the crossover needed for bass. No messing around with signal matrix.
Id be prepared to do the legwork as long as the end result could be used by a 10 year old child without ever having to look at a PC monitor. Back in the day I had a TC Impact Twin feeding raw balanced phono and using Pure Vinyl to do digital RIAA. The back and forth became too cumbersome and between drivers, firmware and scattered app crash it became tiresome.