Hi all,
I can't afford to actually build speakers anymore so I'm reduced to indulging the psychosis vicariously thru this forum and my blog page. To that end I've just drawn up another version of a speaker I call the Eros Clone... because I shamelessly plagiarized it from Roger Sanders.
The woofer box uses kerf-bent A-A plywood for the curved back, and the front facia moldings and woofer baffle are also hardwood. The woofer box sides and internal baffles interlock with dados.
My Delta-Cad drawing has dimensioned orthographic views for all details, including 1/2" MDF router templates for flush trimming the curved box sides and plunge-routing the dados.
The woodwork is the hard part for any speaker and drawing it is about as arduous. So I'm happy to share my drawings with anyone who wants them. Minimum required tools include a table saw and router.
BTW, has anyone here ever heard Roger Sanders' Eros speaker? I have not but I've read great reviews. I only hope the compact transmission line would work as well as reported; seeing as how its volume and line sections are obviously configured for compactness rather than ideal bass response (all designs are necessarily compromised).
My drawing is in color but I had to make the excerpt below black for visibility:
I can't afford to actually build speakers anymore so I'm reduced to indulging the psychosis vicariously thru this forum and my blog page. To that end I've just drawn up another version of a speaker I call the Eros Clone... because I shamelessly plagiarized it from Roger Sanders.
The woofer box uses kerf-bent A-A plywood for the curved back, and the front facia moldings and woofer baffle are also hardwood. The woofer box sides and internal baffles interlock with dados.
My Delta-Cad drawing has dimensioned orthographic views for all details, including 1/2" MDF router templates for flush trimming the curved box sides and plunge-routing the dados.
The woodwork is the hard part for any speaker and drawing it is about as arduous. So I'm happy to share my drawings with anyone who wants them. Minimum required tools include a table saw and router.
BTW, has anyone here ever heard Roger Sanders' Eros speaker? I have not but I've read great reviews. I only hope the compact transmission line would work as well as reported; seeing as how its volume and line sections are obviously configured for compactness rather than ideal bass response (all designs are necessarily compromised).
My drawing is in color but I had to make the excerpt below black for visibility:
looking nice, one thing, for wich woofer is it designed ?. i mean making TL's with parameters is hard enough for me (moddeled allot never build) but as i remember it was pretty picky on what drivers to use wich Sd etc
I gave up trying to model TL's, lest I end up in a psycho ward.
I didn't design this TL around a specific woofer or even model it. I merely approximately scaled the line from an un-dimensioned illustration of the Eros line in Roger Sanders' TL white paper. Roger has said he uses a 10" paper cone woofer supplied by a Danish manufacturer. I suspect his Eros speaker uses this Scan-Speak woofer
I drew in a 10" Aurum Cantus AC-250MkII woofer because I had it drawn already and I use it in my beam splitter TL. It sounds wonderful in the beam splitter but the lines are quite different so I can't assume equivalency.
I suspect the TL gurus here on the forum would say Sanders' Eros TL (and my copy) lacks sufficient volume and length to be optimal, and I cannot attest to it's sound because I've not heard Sanders' speaker or my copy.
For me the advantages of a TL are tonal quality and transient speed. And I suspect this TL would work fine down to a frequency equivalent to 4x line length; below which the woofer would de-couple from the line and lose dampening. Of course, this would not be a problem in my setup, where I'm digitally crossing to Ripole subs below 50 Hz.
Sanders' Cookbook provides the following basic guidelines for TL's but does not recommend a specific woofer:
Length s/b 1/4 wavelength of desired lowest frequency but can be shortened with sufficient stuffing (doesn't say how short).
Line s/b curved behind the woofer and taper continuously to the terminus,
Line section area s/b 125% of SD at the inlet, tapering to 100% of SD at the terminus. However, inlet/terminus area can reduced as low as 100%/70% if taper ratio is maintained.
Stuffing density s/b about 0.5 lbs/ft3
I didn't design this TL around a specific woofer or even model it. I merely approximately scaled the line from an un-dimensioned illustration of the Eros line in Roger Sanders' TL white paper. Roger has said he uses a 10" paper cone woofer supplied by a Danish manufacturer. I suspect his Eros speaker uses this Scan-Speak woofer
I drew in a 10" Aurum Cantus AC-250MkII woofer because I had it drawn already and I use it in my beam splitter TL. It sounds wonderful in the beam splitter but the lines are quite different so I can't assume equivalency.
I suspect the TL gurus here on the forum would say Sanders' Eros TL (and my copy) lacks sufficient volume and length to be optimal, and I cannot attest to it's sound because I've not heard Sanders' speaker or my copy.
For me the advantages of a TL are tonal quality and transient speed. And I suspect this TL would work fine down to a frequency equivalent to 4x line length; below which the woofer would de-couple from the line and lose dampening. Of course, this would not be a problem in my setup, where I'm digitally crossing to Ripole subs below 50 Hz.
Sanders' Cookbook provides the following basic guidelines for TL's but does not recommend a specific woofer:
Length s/b 1/4 wavelength of desired lowest frequency but can be shortened with sufficient stuffing (doesn't say how short).
Line s/b curved behind the woofer and taper continuously to the terminus,
Line section area s/b 125% of SD at the inlet, tapering to 100% of SD at the terminus. However, inlet/terminus area can reduced as low as 100%/70% if taper ratio is maintained.
Stuffing density s/b about 0.5 lbs/ft3
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There ain't a lot of holes there except for that big one where the woofer goes!
That definitely looks like the Eros to me Charlie, good job! 
Speaking of the t-line, the ultimate driver for a t-line used to be the KEF B-139 (long out of production).
It took me a month or so just pouring over and comparing TS parameters to find a suitable driver for mine, I used recommendations from both Sanders' book and especially the LSDCookbook. I finally arrived at the Peerless 850146 10" driver that worked out beautifully..🙂 Sadly those are no longer available either..🙁
The t-line that Sanders recommends is the classic style with the woofer at the beginning of the line, I made a few test cabs using this design, but it wasn't until I read up on ML King's models that I built something that was a lot better.
Basically, the driver is placed around a quarter of the way down the line instead of at the beginning. From what I gathered, this design needed less stuffing to produce the desired effect (and turns out more SPL) because the driver 'sees' a line that is both 6 foot and 10 foot (in an 8 foot line) at the same time... This cuts in half and spreads out the FR ripples that an un-stuffed line naturally produces.
Much debate still surrounds the design of t-lines, but in my case the measurements didn't lie, I was really happy with the final results of my 'dead line' t-line..😉
Just for the heck of it, here's a pic of it being glued up:
Speaking of the t-line, the ultimate driver for a t-line used to be the KEF B-139 (long out of production).
It took me a month or so just pouring over and comparing TS parameters to find a suitable driver for mine, I used recommendations from both Sanders' book and especially the LSDCookbook. I finally arrived at the Peerless 850146 10" driver that worked out beautifully..🙂 Sadly those are no longer available either..🙁
The t-line that Sanders recommends is the classic style with the woofer at the beginning of the line, I made a few test cabs using this design, but it wasn't until I read up on ML King's models that I built something that was a lot better.
Basically, the driver is placed around a quarter of the way down the line instead of at the beginning. From what I gathered, this design needed less stuffing to produce the desired effect (and turns out more SPL) because the driver 'sees' a line that is both 6 foot and 10 foot (in an 8 foot line) at the same time... This cuts in half and spreads out the FR ripples that an un-stuffed line naturally produces.
Much debate still surrounds the design of t-lines, but in my case the measurements didn't lie, I was really happy with the final results of my 'dead line' t-line..😉
Just for the heck of it, here's a pic of it being glued up:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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The older I get the dumber I feel... I never could figure out how to use MJ King's MathCad modeling for TL's.
I have Vance Dickason's [almost complete] LSD Cookbook too... and I'm disappointed he didn't cover TL's anywhere near the extent that he covered every other bass alignment known to man.
I'm hoping to hear some rave adjectives soon about your new ESL's!
BTW, nice fence on that table saw
I have Vance Dickason's [almost complete] LSD Cookbook too... and I'm disappointed he didn't cover TL's anywhere near the extent that he covered every other bass alignment known to man.
I'm hoping to hear some rave adjectives soon about your new ESL's!
BTW, nice fence on that table saw
Ha! I couldn't follow the math either...I just looked at the pictures..😛
I just followed the general premise of what he was saying, applied a little common sense (dumb luck) and it turned out great after about a week of stuffing/testing.
Anyway, didn't mean to bomb your thread bro, just sharing my experience..haha..
BTW, the flat panels I have were the pre-curser to Sanders' designs with Innersound. To quote them back in '99: "we decided to change the coating" ..whatever that means...who knows
Thanks for the comps on the fence..🙂
I just followed the general premise of what he was saying, applied a little common sense (dumb luck) and it turned out great after about a week of stuffing/testing.
Anyway, didn't mean to bomb your thread bro, just sharing my experience..haha..
BTW, the flat panels I have were the pre-curser to Sanders' designs with Innersound. To quote them back in '99: "we decided to change the coating" ..whatever that means...who knows
Thanks for the comps on the fence..🙂
Charlie: nice job - I hope someone tries it. I was inspired by your DIY thread and was looking into materials to do my own ESL's, but then found a pristine pair of Acoustat Model 3's and bought them. I've bought upgrade and replacement caps and resistors to bring the interfaces up to the "C" mod. I've built lots of speakers, but may never do cones again after listening to my Model 3 ESL's. I wish I'd heard ESL's years ago.
Hi Hank,
Actually, I believe someone is preparing to build this speaker now. This person requested a drawing of the earlier version posted on my website, which inspired me to finish my drawing of this newer version. I sent both drawings and he's leaning toward this one.
I would love to hear your Acoustats!
Charlie, I have heard his speakers every time he goes to CES in Vegas.
I don't think he was there last year, but I have always enjoyed listening to them as there one of the best speakers that play loud and at the same time have light delicacy that seems a contradiction to the clean SPL levels they can achieve.
They easily speak with one voice over the whole range without highlighting a certain range like cone speakers with crossovers. (Vandersteen the exception IMO) ESL's in general have this quality, just more so here
He tried a lot of woofers (according to him) to get a seamless blend with the panels and I have heard no better, a difficult combination to iron out..,
Not cheap, but considering his expensive competition that doesn't come close, a bargain.
Easily on of the best ESL's ever made if not the best
Regards
David
I don't think he was there last year, but I have always enjoyed listening to them as there one of the best speakers that play loud and at the same time have light delicacy that seems a contradiction to the clean SPL levels they can achieve.
They easily speak with one voice over the whole range without highlighting a certain range like cone speakers with crossovers. (Vandersteen the exception IMO) ESL's in general have this quality, just more so here
He tried a lot of woofers (according to him) to get a seamless blend with the panels and I have heard no better, a difficult combination to iron out..,
Not cheap, but considering his expensive competition that doesn't come close, a bargain.
Easily on of the best ESL's ever made if not the best
Regards
David
Hi Dave,
I figured as much. I borrowed heavily from Roger's Cookbook and white papers when designing my beam splitter. It too is more seamless that I could have imagined. Later, after my website was up, I struck up a phone and email friendship with Roger. ESL builders love to talk about them and his energy and enthusiasm is indeed contagious. It was Roger who convinced me to lose the analog crossover and go digital... and I never looked back.
Yes, Roger is right up there with Nelson Pass...both very helpful and promote this crazy hobby of ours. Without generous people like them this site would be more about subjective opinions than science....
I had the 10C and really like them, but someone just had to have them....I am now toying with restoring an original CLS panel (mylar and all) and a pair of Scintillas.... The 10C were definitely a sweet pair of speakers tho.
I had the 10C and really like them, but someone just had to have them....I am now toying with restoring an original CLS panel (mylar and all) and a pair of Scintillas.... The 10C were definitely a sweet pair of speakers tho.
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