Today I was listening to some good music LOUD and for the first time I noticed on one of the speakers a noise coming from the tweeter.
Like a rattle.
It was only apparent with very few musics, mainly some that had a loud piano.
I detected this with a Linn demo SACD/(HD)CD hybrid disc.
I thought to myself: this is it, I have a bad tweeter on my beloved speakers.
I have never opened them, I didn't know how to, looking at them you really scratch your head.
But this time I had to.
So I oppened the bad speaker.😀
It's not that difficult: you remove the rubber thing that holds the grilles and behind that there's a screw.
It's 4 big screws, one at each corner of the speaker, that brace the front to the back panel.
Opened it, and I was impressed.😱
Double cabinet.😱
No wonder this speaker has no resonances, absolutely no box sound.
As it was opened, I saw that the wiring was not so good as I thought. After all, it was not the (later model) DNM Reson, but some other cheap wire.
I stripped some spare Kimber 4TC and used single conductor wires for the tweeter and double for the woofer.
While re-wiring I saw the problem.
The original tweeter wires has so much solder that it was in contact with the magnet.
Thinking of it, the short was not permanent, it was effective only when a large current passed through it.
The speakers have never been opened before (or so it looked like), so this is a manufacturing fault.😱
I open this thread so that anyone that has these speakers and this problem finds the solution.
As I am at it, I'm changing the Bennic 1.5uf film cap for something better, let's see what comes out of this.
Now excuse me, time to re-wire and re-cap the other speaker.😀
Like a rattle.
It was only apparent with very few musics, mainly some that had a loud piano.
I detected this with a Linn demo SACD/(HD)CD hybrid disc.
I thought to myself: this is it, I have a bad tweeter on my beloved speakers.
I have never opened them, I didn't know how to, looking at them you really scratch your head.
But this time I had to.
So I oppened the bad speaker.😀
It's not that difficult: you remove the rubber thing that holds the grilles and behind that there's a screw.
It's 4 big screws, one at each corner of the speaker, that brace the front to the back panel.
Opened it, and I was impressed.😱
Double cabinet.😱
No wonder this speaker has no resonances, absolutely no box sound.
As it was opened, I saw that the wiring was not so good as I thought. After all, it was not the (later model) DNM Reson, but some other cheap wire.
I stripped some spare Kimber 4TC and used single conductor wires for the tweeter and double for the woofer.
While re-wiring I saw the problem.
The original tweeter wires has so much solder that it was in contact with the magnet.
Thinking of it, the short was not permanent, it was effective only when a large current passed through it.
The speakers have never been opened before (or so it looked like), so this is a manufacturing fault.😱
I open this thread so that anyone that has these speakers and this problem finds the solution.
As I am at it, I'm changing the Bennic 1.5uf film cap for something better, let's see what comes out of this.
Now excuse me, time to re-wire and re-cap the other speaker.😀
Carlos,
the ES11 was developed primarily for a Naim context, using Naim amplification; as such the earlier models' inner cabling is just multi stranded copper, similar to NACA4/5.
The synergistic attributes of DNM/Reson LSC was 'detected' at a later date.
When putting it back together, make sure there's no stuffing blocking the ports. 😉
Best regards,
Oliver
the ES11 was developed primarily for a Naim context, using Naim amplification; as such the earlier models' inner cabling is just multi stranded copper, similar to NACA4/5.
The synergistic attributes of DNM/Reson LSC was 'detected' at a later date.
When putting it back together, make sure there's no stuffing blocking the ports. 😉
Best regards,
Oliver
A Classic
The original cap is not that good as a part but some people I know had to return back to it after substituting with other much dearer and proven caps. Thing is that it sounds synergistic to the particular tweeter. So be sure you dont lose it.
A cap that sounded good and synergistic is Mundorf supreme silver oil. Worth its money.
Also if in the end you have a slightly bad tweeter, the only guys who keep old Epos parts are: www.lockwoodaudio.com
I would suggest you get a spare for the future since Epos 11 is a classic that will never be repeated.
The original cap is not that good as a part but some people I know had to return back to it after substituting with other much dearer and proven caps. Thing is that it sounds synergistic to the particular tweeter. So be sure you dont lose it.
A cap that sounded good and synergistic is Mundorf supreme silver oil. Worth its money.
Also if in the end you have a slightly bad tweeter, the only guys who keep old Epos parts are: www.lockwoodaudio.com
I would suggest you get a spare for the future since Epos 11 is a classic that will never be repeated.
Re: A Classic
Hi Oliver,
The inner cabling really looks like PSU cable.
Those cables that you see on transformers.
It says: "Mayflex 18Awg - 1 mm2 105ºC 600V".
Worth replacing.😀
You are so right, Salas...
I changed the original Bennic film caps for some "good" Siemens film caps and the speaker sounds like cheap.
That magical midband and treble is no more.
I'm gonna let them
-in until tomorrow. If the speaker sounds the same to me (like crap), I'll put the Bennics in again.
Let's see how this story ends.
The Bennics aboard again should return the magical sound of this speaker, and the better cabling should make it's job too.
Or not?
I still have the original cables...😀
No, the tweeter is fine now, really.😎
I played the same track again at loud volume and no problem at all.
Indeed.
I just love them.
coredump said:
Hi Oliver,
The inner cabling really looks like PSU cable.
Those cables that you see on transformers.
It says: "Mayflex 18Awg - 1 mm2 105ºC 600V".
Worth replacing.😀
salas said:
You are so right, Salas...
I changed the original Bennic film caps for some "good" Siemens film caps and the speaker sounds like cheap.
That magical midband and treble is no more.
I'm gonna let them
-in until tomorrow. If the speaker sounds the same to me (like crap), I'll put the Bennics in again.salas said:
Let's see how this story ends.
The Bennics aboard again should return the magical sound of this speaker, and the better cabling should make it's job too.
Or not?
I still have the original cables...😀
salas said:
No, the tweeter is fine now, really.😎
I played the same track again at loud volume and no problem at all.
salas said:
Indeed.
I just love them.
Re: Re: A Classic
Carlos,
that's what Naim speaker cable basically is - mains cable. Naim amps don't like speaker cables with huge capacitance, hence this approach works pretty well for them.
MCap Supreme work very well in this application, IMHO no need to spend twice that money.
Best regards,
Oliver
Carlos,
carlosfm said:The inner cabling really looks like PSU cable.
Those cables that you see on transformers.
It says: "Mayflex 18Awg - 1 mm2 105ºC 600V".
Worth replacing.😀
that's what Naim speaker cable basically is - mains cable. Naim amps don't like speaker cables with huge capacitance, hence this approach works pretty well for them.
as I wrote elsewhere, check the caps' ESR before; if it proves to be different to the Bennics', use a resistor to restore the balance.carlosfm said:You are so right, Salas...
I changed the original Bennic film caps for some "good" Siemens film caps and the speaker sounds like cheap.
That magical midband and treble is no more.
I'm gonna let them
MCap Supreme work very well in this application, IMHO no need to spend twice that money.
Best regards,
Oliver
Re: Re: Re: A Classic
Yes, they don't use zobels.
Capacitive cables can even kill Naims.😀
The speakers still sound like crap today.
Tonight I'm gonna put the Bennics back.
Anyway, there's a 47R resistor in parallel with the tweeter and I'm sure that changing the cap this one has to be tuned too.
I just don't feel like fiddling right now.
Gonna check the price of those Mundorf caps, as I've been told several times that they are very good.
First I wanna enjoy the speakers with the Bennics back in and the new internal cables.
Maby I won't change anything more.
Oh, the amp runs 😎er now.😀
coredump said:
Yes, they don't use zobels.
Capacitive cables can even kill Naims.😀
coredump said:
The speakers still sound like crap today.
Tonight I'm gonna put the Bennics back.
Anyway, there's a 47R resistor in parallel with the tweeter and I'm sure that changing the cap this one has to be tuned too.
I just don't feel like fiddling right now.
Gonna check the price of those Mundorf caps, as I've been told several times that they are very good.
First I wanna enjoy the speakers with the Bennics back in and the new internal cables.
Maby I won't change anything more.
Oh, the amp runs 😎er now.😀
Nuuk said:
142 pounds?
Maby I can get a spare pair of new ES11s cheaper, on a distributor.😀
I'll phone them tomorrow.
Yes, my friend has told me some months ago that they still have a pair of new ES11s, but they "seam to have a problem".
I'll ask him the minimum price, as they can't sell them.
I guess I know what's the problem.😎
The significant theoretical difference between electrolytics and film caps is that electros tend to have much higher ESR (thinner plates) and usually more ESL. This is fairly serious in bigger 50 uF and higher caps, but still the theory applies in general. So something you might want to try at some point, is to add a bit of series resistance with the film cap. For a 1.5 uF it should not be much at all probably less than .1 ohm and it could be as high as .5 for larger values above 100 uF but it depends on the constrution of the cap. Might also try a smaller value, just by 5 or 10% since electros tend to run toward the lower side of the tolerance. Less material saves the company money, more profit.
Real world capacitors, especially electrolytics are really distributed networks. The section of plate furthest away from the attachment point is connected through the inductance and resistance of the plate wind leading up to that section. This causes the effective capacitance to change with frequency and to a larger extent with electrolytics. Still, it's not much.
Real world capacitors, especially electrolytics are really distributed networks. The section of plate furthest away from the attachment point is connected through the inductance and resistance of the plate wind leading up to that section. This causes the effective capacitance to change with frequency and to a larger extent with electrolytics. Still, it's not much.
oops, saw Bennic and thought electrolytic just reread that it was a film, but 1.5 uF? sounds too low, sure it's not 15 uF for a large tweeter like that?
PB2 said:
It's film, and it's 1.5uf.
There's also a 47 ohm resistor across the terminals, after the cap (it's in parallel with the tweeter).
The woofer has no crossover, it was made so that it doesn't need it.
Good news
The Bennics are back, the midband and treble magic and purity too.
In fact, there seams to be something more going on around here, and it must be the new internal Kimber 4TC cables (stripped, 1 wire for tweeter, two wires for the woofer).
Its seams to work very well, it's late now but tomorrow I'll listen LOUDER.😎
Excuse me, detail is invading me.😀
The Bennics are back, the midband and treble magic and purity too.
In fact, there seams to be something more going on around here, and it must be the new internal Kimber 4TC cables (stripped, 1 wire for tweeter, two wires for the woofer).
Its seams to work very well, it's late now but tomorrow I'll listen LOUDER.😎
Excuse me, detail is invading me.😀
Well... the speakers are playin' very nice sounds, they like the new internal cables.😀
But... I've just noticed that the faulty tweeter still has that rattle at high volume.
I wonder what kind of tweeter is this... it only says "made in W. Germany".
Visaton?
Anyway, what would be it's problem?
Maby it became a little off-centre?
I have removed the tweeter from the speaker.
Any risks if I open it (take out the front plate)?
Anything I can do?
I mean... I don't have much to loose...
But... I've just noticed that the faulty tweeter still has that rattle at high volume.
I wonder what kind of tweeter is this... it only says "made in W. Germany".
Visaton?
Anyway, what would be it's problem?
Maby it became a little off-centre?
I have removed the tweeter from the speaker.
Any risks if I open it (take out the front plate)?
Anything I can do?
I mean... I don't have much to loose...
I've seen this happen many times with various tweeters. It may hint of slight head-banging listening preference 🙂 Depending on the design you may be able to disassemble and fix it.
salas said:
I ordered today from Lockwood Audio.😀
Thanks for the link, Salas.
Although the problem is only noticiable at LOUD volume and with some tracks, I couldn't live with it...
analog_sa said:
I disassembled it, made some very gentle internal cleaning and assembled it again.
The tweeter is glued to the front plate, when you remove it everything comes out, the dome/coil...
I suspect that it may a question of separating the whole thing from the top plate and glue it again.
But I didn't wanna take the risk, as I have doubts that I could center it properly and I would have a completely ruined unit.
At least I'm listening to music until the new one arrives.
My experience is that Bennic cap and "detail" don't really mix.
Maybe it is because the Epos uses a metal dome tweeter which may sound "metalic" and a good cap will bring this out whereas the Bennic will smooth out this sound.
You might want to try to order a new pair of tweeters from Epos.
Maybe it is because the Epos uses a metal dome tweeter which may sound "metalic" and a good cap will bring this out whereas the Bennic will smooth out this sound.
You might want to try to order a new pair of tweeters from Epos.
ChuckT said:
After reading this thread that's your conclusion?😕
These Bennic caps are film.
The "better" ones I tried were Siemens MKP.
The midband and treble were completely gone.
"Smooth" to the point that at low level it was only bass...
Hey, who says that all metal dome tweeters sound the same?
Who says that they have to sound "metallic"?
ChuckT said:
More metal dome tweeters?😀
I ordered a new, original Epos ES11 tweeter.
Done
The tweeter arrived today.
It's really an original and new EPOS ES11 tweeter.
It's already mounted, and as I was at it, I changed those 47R 2w carbon resistors (that shunt the tweeter) for something stronger, 47w 3w carbon.
My beloved speakers are very well now thank you, gonna let them-in for some two weeks.
BTW, the Lockwood Audio guys are very professional indeed.
Fast e-mail replies, good packaging, fast delivery, original products.
Amen.
The tweeter arrived today.
It's really an original and new EPOS ES11 tweeter.
It's already mounted, and as I was at it, I changed those 47R 2w carbon resistors (that shunt the tweeter) for something stronger, 47w 3w carbon.
My beloved speakers are very well now thank you, gonna let them
-in for some two weeks.BTW, the Lockwood Audio guys are very professional indeed.
Fast e-mail replies, good packaging, fast delivery, original products.
Amen.
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