Hi,
I am looking for drivers for dipole subs up to 200-300 Hz. I have read bigger drivers (for example 15" or larger) are better for this type of application but I do not know which are suited to go up to that frequency. Can someone suggest some driver?
How big should the driver be (and haw many per sub for a room of about 25m2?
Thanks,
Sebastian
I am looking for drivers for dipole subs up to 200-300 Hz. I have read bigger drivers (for example 15" or larger) are better for this type of application but I do not know which are suited to go up to that frequency. Can someone suggest some driver?
How big should the driver be (and haw many per sub for a room of about 25m2?
Thanks,
Sebastian
Adire koda drivers have high excursion, low distortion and can be crossed surprisingly high for subs. The 8" version can go as high as 300 Hz and Koda drivers go as big as 15" but I'm not sure about how high you can go with the bigger Koda drivers, you would need to look into this.
It's quite a challenge for a driver to handle this range for a dipole. Linkwitz crosses at 120 Hz in his Orions and this gives you more options. You can then use either 8" midbass drivers in a 3 way or use smaller midrange drivers and 10" woofers in a 4 way.
Generally subs don't work well that high. You might need to also look at large woofers, which probably won't have the excursion to go low unless you use a lot of them to gain SD instead of excursion - PA drivers
It's quite a challenge for a driver to handle this range for a dipole. Linkwitz crosses at 120 Hz in his Orions and this gives you more options. You can then use either 8" midbass drivers in a 3 way or use smaller midrange drivers and 10" woofers in a 4 way.
Generally subs don't work well that high. You might need to also look at large woofers, which probably won't have the excursion to go low unless you use a lot of them to gain SD instead of excursion - PA drivers
I wouldnt look so much at koda as a DPL12 or maybe a Tumult. the DPL12 is $150 and the Tumult is $500. I would say both could easily go up to 200hz. The Tumult would only be if for you if you wanna have some really deep bass down low and are willing to pay for it. The DPL12 was optimized for dipoles apparently thats what the site says. I'd say you need at least 2, it depends on how low you want to go. Also how you configure the baffle. What baffle designs have you considered? Someone in another thread used some Pyle 15" drivers that were super cheap from parts express. He got four of them and put them in H boxes and apparently they were the best bass he had ever heard. I dont think he crossed them as high as 200hz but who knows. Why are you crossing that high?
Actually on second thoughts, the Koda drivers have stamped baskets, not a good idea for dipole as you won't be able to use all their excursion capability.
The DPL is a good dipole driver as this is what it was designed for - it has an open cast basket design and a large vent so it apparently has no turbulent airflow noise.
I have heard of comparisons of the XLS and DPL12 for dipole use and apparently the XLS has lower distortion on the upper end. The DPL has the distortion advantage down much lower, but this is in the range where there is very little output in a dipole. The XLS may in fact be better with its upper end extension, although I haven't looked into it. While the DPL has the looks advantage, the XLS is certainly worth considering.
Sorry I can't be of much help, your requirement of a higher upper end means you might need to consider some other lesser known (in this forum anyway) drivers.
You might look at the LDSG as a resource for finding drivers. Good place to start.
Thanks for your replies.
I just build a pair of nice bookshelf speakers in BR enclosures with the Fostex Fe126e. Very nice driver so far. The FR is not yet very flat (some work still to be done) and they do not ge very low, but I already like them very much. (93 dB sensitivity, 4.5", large magnet and light paper cone)
Now I plan to build something a little diferent with the same drivers. I`ll place them in small closed boxes and use them down to 250-300 Hz. Kuei and others on this forum have recommended dipole woofers from this point down to 50 Hz to avoid room interactios. Thats why i started to search for these drivers.
Another interesting option (which might also be quite cheaper) is to build something like the NaO or closed boxes with a linkwitz transform. There is still much i should read around.
I just build a pair of nice bookshelf speakers in BR enclosures with the Fostex Fe126e. Very nice driver so far. The FR is not yet very flat (some work still to be done) and they do not ge very low, but I already like them very much. (93 dB sensitivity, 4.5", large magnet and light paper cone)
Now I plan to build something a little diferent with the same drivers. I`ll place them in small closed boxes and use them down to 250-300 Hz. Kuei and others on this forum have recommended dipole woofers from this point down to 50 Hz to avoid room interactios. Thats why i started to search for these drivers.
Another interesting option (which might also be quite cheaper) is to build something like the NaO or closed boxes with a linkwitz transform. There is still much i should read around.
Another option is to eq a monopole to deal with modes. You can also use bass traps to tame the room. Dipoles don't totally fix room problems, at least not according to the simulations I have done. I have yet to see inroom measurements for dipoles.
Dipole Bass
People were getting big, cheap woofers with high Qts values to reduce the amount of equilization needed, and as much excursion as possible along with low Fs. So, basically buying as much swept surface area as possible with Qts in the .8 - 1.0 range, then mounting in an "H" or "W" baffle.
No mention of measured distortion.
Because dipole roll-off requires perhaps 4X the surface area to counter the losses in SPL as frequency drops, all else being the same, multiple woofers are needed.
To get the low extension and the higher cut-off you require, look for woofers with shorting rings or other means to counter increased voice coil inductance and cone break-up. Check for Le in the .8 values or lower in sizes of 300 - 375mm or even larger. Maybe even special attention to the cone contour to reduce the break-up and extend reponse.
Beyma, B&C, BSC, possible even RCF or Monacor may have the units you need, although the price goes up pretty quickly and Qts is generally low. Parts Express offers the Dayton Infinite Baffle (IB) woofers in a 15", which would work well.
Or, try the used market, if this is just a trial or proof of concept experiment.
Tim
People were getting big, cheap woofers with high Qts values to reduce the amount of equilization needed, and as much excursion as possible along with low Fs. So, basically buying as much swept surface area as possible with Qts in the .8 - 1.0 range, then mounting in an "H" or "W" baffle.
No mention of measured distortion.
Because dipole roll-off requires perhaps 4X the surface area to counter the losses in SPL as frequency drops, all else being the same, multiple woofers are needed.
To get the low extension and the higher cut-off you require, look for woofers with shorting rings or other means to counter increased voice coil inductance and cone break-up. Check for Le in the .8 values or lower in sizes of 300 - 375mm or even larger. Maybe even special attention to the cone contour to reduce the break-up and extend reponse.
Beyma, B&C, BSC, possible even RCF or Monacor may have the units you need, although the price goes up pretty quickly and Qts is generally low. Parts Express offers the Dayton Infinite Baffle (IB) woofers in a 15", which would work well.
Or, try the used market, if this is just a trial or proof of concept experiment.
Tim
John J. at Stryke/AE Speakers, has a special on dipole/IB 15"s.
$100ea with 4 driver min purchase.
Fs: 16Hz
Qms: 4.912
Vas: 467L
Cms: .45 mm/N
Mms: 218g
Xmax: 15.5mm
Sd: 855 sqcm
Qes: .484
Re: 5.6ohm
Le: 1.25mH
Z: 8ohm
B: 16Tm
Qts: .44
no: .381%
1W SPL: 88dB
2.83V SPL: 89.5dB
$100ea with 4 driver min purchase.
Fs: 16Hz
Qms: 4.912
Vas: 467L
Cms: .45 mm/N
Mms: 218g
Xmax: 15.5mm
Sd: 855 sqcm
Qes: .484
Re: 5.6ohm
Le: 1.25mH
Z: 8ohm
B: 16Tm
Qts: .44
no: .381%
1W SPL: 88dB
2.83V SPL: 89.5dB
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Member
Joined 2003
I corresponded with John @ Stryke last week and he also has components to build the Lambda purpose-specific 15" dipole with the faraday motor. Of course the price is significantly higher than the $100 IB drivers.
Hey Thomas...how well would the new 15-18" "mystery drivers" work in a dipole?
Hey Thomas...how well would the new 15-18" "mystery drivers" work in a dipole?
In addition to the drivers, the shape and dimensions of the baffle are a determining factor.
It appears that the W baffle is limited to under 150 Hz.
The H baffle the upper frequency is less than f=1/4DS IIRC.
The 18" H baffle for the phoenix worked out around 250 Hz, again IIRC. However, if I read SL's notes correctly, measurements revealed that the resonant frequency was lower than theory predicted.
Flat baffles should be determined by the driver capabilities.
The Specs on a Dayton IB 15" go to 500 Hz, so 200 to 300 seem achievable.
Just My 2 Cents.
Doug
It appears that the W baffle is limited to under 150 Hz.
The H baffle the upper frequency is less than f=1/4DS IIRC.
The 18" H baffle for the phoenix worked out around 250 Hz, again IIRC. However, if I read SL's notes correctly, measurements revealed that the resonant frequency was lower than theory predicted.
Flat baffles should be determined by the driver capabilities.
The Specs on a Dayton IB 15" go to 500 Hz, so 200 to 300 seem achievable.
Just My 2 Cents.
Doug
Hey Paul!
I think they'd be great .
I started a thread earlier today on HT-Guide about a lazy man's high-end dipole using these and a stacked pair of the new Maggie MMG-W's.
Unfortunately people seem little to conservative to appreciate that for under $2K one could create a pretty amazing dipole line array. 😉
I think they'd be great .
I started a thread earlier today on HT-Guide about a lazy man's high-end dipole using these and a stacked pair of the new Maggie MMG-W's.
Unfortunately people seem little to conservative to appreciate that for under $2K one could create a pretty amazing dipole line array. 😉
Any Freq plot for Stryke Dipole
ThomasW,
Do you have a frequency vs SPL plot for the 15" Stryke IB/Dipole pictured in your post? Is there is a rear cooling vent on the motor?
The 218g Mms looks like a thick poly cone vs. the paper cone on the 105g Lambda Dipole, so the freq range will be interesting to compare.
ThomasW,
Do you have a frequency vs SPL plot for the 15" Stryke IB/Dipole pictured in your post? Is there is a rear cooling vent on the motor?
The 218g Mms looks like a thick poly cone vs. the paper cone on the 105g Lambda Dipole, so the freq range will be interesting to compare.
At this point there is no data other than the T/S parameter from John J.
It's a 'new' driver built by John from Nick's inventory.
Yes they use the heavy poly cone, hence the low Fs and high Mns.
My understanding is that he has enough parts to build 150 of these drivers.
For specific details John has a thread on his forum where one can post questions about the Stryke/Lambda drivers
It's a 'new' driver built by John from Nick's inventory.
Yes they use the heavy poly cone, hence the low Fs and high Mns.
My understanding is that he has enough parts to build 150 of these drivers.
For specific details John has a thread on his forum where one can post questions about the Stryke/Lambda drivers
I have been looking at the Eminence delta 15LF , seems a nice driver that can go quite high and might work on OB. Anyone has worked with this driver. The price semms to be quite right too!!😉
The Eminence Delta-15LFA does look pretty good. The only downside is limited excursion at 4.8mm xmax, and Fs a little high at 41 Hz. Not the same care in construction for dipole use with its stamped steel frame as, say, the Adire DPL-12. The response, though, is extended and flat and the Qs look pretty good for OB.
Hard to tell how well they will match up sound-wise.
Tim
Hard to tell how well they will match up sound-wise.
Tim
paulspencer said:
It sure did for me. I recently compared a SCC300's in a sealed box to two in a Linkwitz W-frame arrangement. Both measurements were taken in-room under exactly the same conditions. The blue line in the graphs indicate the correction that my DEQX wants to apply.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
photo of scc300 based w-frame dipole woofer
photo of scc300 sealed box woofer
Mac's W Frame
That's good solid info. Big difference. Less boom and more music.
Can't help but ask about the system. How do the Seas mid and ribbon (ESG or Fountek) work for you?
Solid bass, but not as deep?
Tim
That's good solid info. Big difference. Less boom and more music.
Can't help but ask about the system. How do the Seas mid and ribbon (ESG or Fountek) work for you?
Solid bass, but not as deep?
Tim
Re: Mac's W Frame
Hi Tim, The Fountek JP2 and W15CH work superbly together. I'm using them with a DEQX so the setup is quite flexible. The F3 of the W-frames in my room is 18Hz so I'm not complaining. The measurements don't tell the half of what's happening sonically. The dipoles produce far more natural sounding bass in my room than the sealed box was capable of even after room eq was applied. Cheers, mac
Tim Moorman said:
Hi Tim, The Fountek JP2 and W15CH work superbly together. I'm using them with a DEQX so the setup is quite flexible. The F3 of the W-frames in my room is 18Hz so I'm not complaining. The measurements don't tell the half of what's happening sonically. The dipoles produce far more natural sounding bass in my room than the sealed box was capable of even after room eq was applied. Cheers, mac
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Nice Job
Gotta sound clean and extended - on both ends! 18Hz is deep - more pressure than sound. Kind of thing where the adjoining rooms dance, too.
Tim
Gotta sound clean and extended - on both ends! 18Hz is deep - more pressure than sound. Kind of thing where the adjoining rooms dance, too.
Tim
Nice pics and graphs mac. I like what you did with the angling on the front panels of your mid-ribbon enclosures, very nice. I wish I weren't so lazy and built my boxes with a little cosmetic art. Well I'm not the best woodworker anyhow, so it might not turn out so pretty.
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