Hi all. I'm not going to settle the component quality argument for everyone, but I'm going to settle it for myself. I have a set of Partsexpress bookshelf Tritrix MTM speakers I built from the kit. They sound pretty good and are easy on the ears but lack detail. My understanding is difference with quality crossover components is improved detail; Perfect for a test! I'm going to upgrade the crossover capacitors and resistor of one of my MTMs and do a listening comparison. I limited the budget to $100 for both speakers (give or take) so I am putting in one step better than stock main capacitors and coupling them with a high quality small value bypass caps. I've heard the sound will take on the characteristics of the smaller cap. I wanted to use Myflex KPCU bypass caps but that blew up the budget so I looked at the Jantzen Superior-Z caps which have great reviews and kept me at $100. The problem was I really wanted to try some copper foil caps so I compromised and am using Myflex caps on the tweeter and Superior-Zs on the woofer- total cost of upgrade is $115.
The crossover schematic is attached. Here are the upgrades:
Current Components (replacement components)
Tweeter
10mf Dayton DMPC cap (10mf Jantzen Standard-Z + .22mf Myflex KPCU cap)
2.4 Ohm 10w Sand cast resistor (2.2 ohm 12 w Mills wire resistor)
Woofer
20mf Dayton DMPC cap (2x- 10mf Jantzen Standard-Z + .22mf Jantzen Superior-Z cap)
I'll post some pics of the before and after and then I'll provide an honest recounting of my perception of one speaker with the upgrades and one without.
Thanks for reading.
Bill
The crossover schematic is attached. Here are the upgrades:
Current Components (replacement components)
Tweeter
10mf Dayton DMPC cap (10mf Jantzen Standard-Z + .22mf Myflex KPCU cap)
2.4 Ohm 10w Sand cast resistor (2.2 ohm 12 w Mills wire resistor)
Woofer
20mf Dayton DMPC cap (2x- 10mf Jantzen Standard-Z + .22mf Jantzen Superior-Z cap)
I'll post some pics of the before and after and then I'll provide an honest recounting of my perception of one speaker with the upgrades and one without.
Thanks for reading.
Bill
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You're adding and changing the value of the capacitances, so this will likely change the sound, though minimally.
I would opt for Solens across the woofer, as I found they do that job well, and save you a few bucks. I also don't condone bypassing, as I've had some smeary results. You might be able to omit the bypasses, and just go with the Superior on the tweeter if you use the Solen for the woofer, cost-wise.
Wolf
I would opt for Solens across the woofer, as I found they do that job well, and save you a few bucks. I also don't condone bypassing, as I've had some smeary results. You might be able to omit the bypasses, and just go with the Superior on the tweeter if you use the Solen for the woofer, cost-wise.
Wolf
Oh, and don't be surprised if the change is not dramatic. Those are pretty cheap drivers, and may not resolve the entire change.
I look fwd to your followup.
Wolf
I look fwd to your followup.
Wolf
"I've heard the sound will take on the characteristics of the smaller cap."
Once you have a preconceived notion you're screwed unless you can do a blind test, something more difficult than you might think. Also, cap comparisons are questionable unless the cap values match closely. You need to be able to measure them.
Of course this stuff is fun, but it's also the reason the arguments go on forever.
Once you have a preconceived notion you're screwed unless you can do a blind test, something more difficult than you might think. Also, cap comparisons are questionable unless the cap values match closely. You need to be able to measure them.
Of course this stuff is fun, but it's also the reason the arguments go on forever.
You need to measure the electrical characteristics of the components which, if/when different willl change the filter operation.
Then measure the speakers--very hard to do but such is how the game is played. If you think something is different, the measurements will show that because the brains ability to compare things over time is very poor.
I have heard many claims about various things that don't change the measurements at all be they wire, power cords, bricks on the components to stickers on CDs and people claim that it sounds better. I get it, spend a bunch of time and money on something it had better be an improvement--this happens with everything be it car engine performance, cooking dinner or playing around with audio. The last thing anyone ever wants to do is waste time and resources to make things that are not an improvement or worse--to make it measure worse. It's a trap! Don't fall into trusting your ears, sense of taste or whatever as we all do it--the human condition.
So if you want to improve things, kinda the entire point you need to get measurements and reality to match up. Sure, your entire life advertising states if it costs more, it is better but that is obviously not true so don't let personal bias creep in to negate the results and waste your time and efforts. It's a silly little hobby but following testing protocals still apply even with hobbies all the way up to curing disease--use the scientific method as that little quirk actually moves things forward.
I did blind ABX testing years ago with amps, speakers and CD players and the four of us learned what our 20 year old ears were capable of detecting. I then looked at the measurements of the equiopment, figured out what numbers were required to not to be able to detect a difference and used those numbers to purchase gear. Many years later, my hearing acuity is not as good as when I was 20 but I still use those same numbers. Sure, I could do it again but the juice is not worth the squeeze as keeping the original results does not require very high end anything.
Good luck with your testing, it is a pain in the butt to keep it accurate and repeatable but you'll have your answer. Sort of the point of this quirky hobby, to improve what you can improve to make a difference and avoid wasting time/resources on things that make no difference in the real world. I "cheated" by treating the room in ways that would never fly in an actual living space but if I could tell no differences between Amp A VS Amp B VS Amp C in a highly treated room then I won't be able to tell the difference in a typical living room.
Sure saved me a ton of time and effort over the years--no need to chase nirvana when I know what specs I require to not matter in my living room. I'd love a Benchmark, cool amp but realisticallly in a living room it is a waste VS something like a Dolby Digital matering studio.
Have fun with it, always cool to learn new things and improving your measuring prowess.
Then measure the speakers--very hard to do but such is how the game is played. If you think something is different, the measurements will show that because the brains ability to compare things over time is very poor.
I have heard many claims about various things that don't change the measurements at all be they wire, power cords, bricks on the components to stickers on CDs and people claim that it sounds better. I get it, spend a bunch of time and money on something it had better be an improvement--this happens with everything be it car engine performance, cooking dinner or playing around with audio. The last thing anyone ever wants to do is waste time and resources to make things that are not an improvement or worse--to make it measure worse. It's a trap! Don't fall into trusting your ears, sense of taste or whatever as we all do it--the human condition.
So if you want to improve things, kinda the entire point you need to get measurements and reality to match up. Sure, your entire life advertising states if it costs more, it is better but that is obviously not true so don't let personal bias creep in to negate the results and waste your time and efforts. It's a silly little hobby but following testing protocals still apply even with hobbies all the way up to curing disease--use the scientific method as that little quirk actually moves things forward.
I did blind ABX testing years ago with amps, speakers and CD players and the four of us learned what our 20 year old ears were capable of detecting. I then looked at the measurements of the equiopment, figured out what numbers were required to not to be able to detect a difference and used those numbers to purchase gear. Many years later, my hearing acuity is not as good as when I was 20 but I still use those same numbers. Sure, I could do it again but the juice is not worth the squeeze as keeping the original results does not require very high end anything.
Good luck with your testing, it is a pain in the butt to keep it accurate and repeatable but you'll have your answer. Sort of the point of this quirky hobby, to improve what you can improve to make a difference and avoid wasting time/resources on things that make no difference in the real world. I "cheated" by treating the room in ways that would never fly in an actual living space but if I could tell no differences between Amp A VS Amp B VS Amp C in a highly treated room then I won't be able to tell the difference in a typical living room.
Sure saved me a ton of time and effort over the years--no need to chase nirvana when I know what specs I require to not matter in my living room. I'd love a Benchmark, cool amp but realisticallly in a living room it is a waste VS something like a Dolby Digital matering studio.
Have fun with it, always cool to learn new things and improving your measuring prowess.
How much were the speakers?
Might be cheaper to get another set second hand.
Parts Express is low end generic stuff.
Might be cheaper to get another set second hand.
Parts Express is low end generic stuff.
TriTrix MTM Speaker Kit Pair with Knock-Down Cabinets
I do understand that experiments like this are fun and that is the driving force for doing this but, that being said, $100 in crossover components are a lot to add to a total of $50 worth of tweeters and $100 worth of woofers. Especially when audio memory for comparing is so short.
I am going to make an effort to not know which speaker is upgraded with the help of a friend. These are my garage speakers and I just want to see if I can get a little more out of them without spending too much. They are a good sounding speaker to start with that can easily fight over their weight-class, so to speak. I heard about bypassing and thought I'd give it a try. When I looked into the current components it was pretty clear that the they really cheaped out on the caps and resistors, which is why I'm not just putting in bypass caps. I believe these economy drivers have a lot more performance to offer than I'm getting but I will be the judge of that.
Get car speakers.
Put them in big boxes.
In a garage it does not matter, even for the existing pair, use generic good quality parts.
No need to go exotic.
And use a known good amp, and known music, to compare.
Enjoy the music.
Put them in big boxes.
In a garage it does not matter, even for the existing pair, use generic good quality parts.
No need to go exotic.
And use a known good amp, and known music, to compare.
Enjoy the music.
invaderzim - You are discounting the sweat equity that is included with a DIY speaker. I feel this is no different than upgrading any other $300 - $700 dollar speaker.
Getting BETTER TWEETERS will be light years ahead of getting "better caps".
Go to the source of the problem, not apply bandaids.
Wel, it was scienticfly tested and measured before: Capacitor upgrade in crossover - You CAN'T handle the TRUTH! - Part 3 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
Conclusion: the differences are so small that nobody can hear it between cheap and expensive film caps. Elco's differ more, mainly in ESR that is higher, and in lifespan (they degrade), but once you use decent quality filmcaps, it does not matter anymore.
The details and measurement results are in the link.
Conclusion: the differences are so small that nobody can hear it between cheap and expensive film caps. Elco's differ more, mainly in ESR that is higher, and in lifespan (they degrade), but once you use decent quality filmcaps, it does not matter anymore.
The details and measurement results are in the link.
Yes, it does matter. Ctrl had an agenda over on ASR, and I cannot discount the absolute differences I have and others have heard. And yes, it can be blatant and not subtle, depending on the drivers.
Wolf
Wolf
Crossovers are such a complicated business I have never bothered with them and have always used full range drivers.
I used to run a mobile disco and never had any complaints about the sound.
I used to run a mobile disco and never had any complaints about the sound.
While it does make a difference, I’d think that what you have in there just isn’t going to be so much different than whatever you’d get for $100.
If it's a waste of time and money (pretty small amounts of each) I'll be the first to admit it. Stay tuned.
This capacitor business can be checked using a meter, if the existing ones are within spec, new ones are not going to make a difference.
They would cost $2 per speaker here, what is the $100 about?
Crossover frequencies are decided and calculated, and the signal fed through a set of capacitor-inductor-resistor networks. Changing the capacitors will not do much to change the performance.
And except for the tweeter, some circuits use a cap to ground for the rest of the speakers...
But you still have the drivers and tweeters to deal with, you can't change those.
If this scratches your itch, gives you mental satisfaction OK, be happy.
Just buy another set of speakers at a garage sale.
Like Nigel said above, crossovers are too complex to rework...don't bother too much.
But check what is wrong first.
Sometimes it can be that the amp is not turned up loud enough...
They would cost $2 per speaker here, what is the $100 about?
Crossover frequencies are decided and calculated, and the signal fed through a set of capacitor-inductor-resistor networks. Changing the capacitors will not do much to change the performance.
And except for the tweeter, some circuits use a cap to ground for the rest of the speakers...
But you still have the drivers and tweeters to deal with, you can't change those.
If this scratches your itch, gives you mental satisfaction OK, be happy.
Just buy another set of speakers at a garage sale.
Like Nigel said above, crossovers are too complex to rework...don't bother too much.
But check what is wrong first.
Sometimes it can be that the amp is not turned up loud enough...
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"This capacitor business can be checked using a meter, if the existing ones are within spec, new ones are not going to make a difference.
They would cost $2 per speaker here, what is the $100 about?" N- NareshBrd
I believe the GR research results. I also believe that you can hear changes made by better components that you can't measure. I believe the increase in detail is a function of faster reactions that create time spaces and separate between the different instruments/sounds.
At internet prices, the components I'm replacing would cost about 15$. Maybe I should shop in India.
They would cost $2 per speaker here, what is the $100 about?" N- NareshBrd
I believe the GR research results. I also believe that you can hear changes made by better components that you can't measure. I believe the increase in detail is a function of faster reactions that create time spaces and separate between the different instruments/sounds.
At internet prices, the components I'm replacing would cost about 15$. Maybe I should shop in India.
What are the things they say you can't measure but will make a difference? There may be information still in another part of the forum.
If a capacitor were JUST a capacitor, then it would make absolutely no difference.
The resistance across the various points of a capacitor is probably not going to have much effect on anything unless it is a capacitor on death's doorstep, or a cheapo-cheapo one!
What's going to matter is the inductance of the rolled up film.
That capacitor is going to be more like this
-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-
L L L L L L L L L L
-----------------------
Those inbuilt inductors are gong to be a small but potentially altering effect depending on the speakers and other compenents of the crossover network. Of course, they're going to be frequency dependent.
Would I drop that kind of money on speakers used in a garage? No way Jose ... the acoustics of the room are going to colour the sound far more than anything that changing a capacitor is going to do!
The resistance across the various points of a capacitor is probably not going to have much effect on anything unless it is a capacitor on death's doorstep, or a cheapo-cheapo one!
What's going to matter is the inductance of the rolled up film.
That capacitor is going to be more like this
-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-C-
L L L L L L L L L L
-----------------------
Those inbuilt inductors are gong to be a small but potentially altering effect depending on the speakers and other compenents of the crossover network. Of course, they're going to be frequency dependent.
Would I drop that kind of money on speakers used in a garage? No way Jose ... the acoustics of the room are going to colour the sound far more than anything that changing a capacitor is going to do!