I've just read and read all that story that started with the little T-Amp, the followers, 41hz, AudioDigit, Charlize, super t-amp, and now that Philips UcD stuff, and I am just totally confused now.
All I want is music, something warm, something enjoyable. From my spare money, say, I can spend $300 for a nice amp. I don't have serious soldering experience, I would never want to solder smds or like, I would be happy to put an assembled board to self-made box, I can even solder some inputs-outputs but no chips or very small parts.
My biggest confusion is about how does all that new stuff compares to vintage or lightly used HiFi stuff - nobody talks about that. For example I can buy a used Pioneer A400 or even a slightly used NAD C320BEE in the UK for that money, which is well known for it's good sound. Nothing high-end, but good sound for it's money. I don't have speakers yet, so I can choose the ones matching for the amp (I can even choose to make ones, but I beleive there is so much developement in acoustics, I'd better buy those).
So, my simple question is, if I can spend let's say $800 for an amp + speaker set, and I enjoy DIYing as long as it's nothing complicated, which way shell I start? In one short question, NAD C320BEE or AudioDigit 2020 kit + PSU kit or something based around UcD180AD?
All I want is music, something warm, something enjoyable. From my spare money, say, I can spend $300 for a nice amp. I don't have serious soldering experience, I would never want to solder smds or like, I would be happy to put an assembled board to self-made box, I can even solder some inputs-outputs but no chips or very small parts.
My biggest confusion is about how does all that new stuff compares to vintage or lightly used HiFi stuff - nobody talks about that. For example I can buy a used Pioneer A400 or even a slightly used NAD C320BEE in the UK for that money, which is well known for it's good sound. Nothing high-end, but good sound for it's money. I don't have speakers yet, so I can choose the ones matching for the amp (I can even choose to make ones, but I beleive there is so much developement in acoustics, I'd better buy those).
So, my simple question is, if I can spend let's say $800 for an amp + speaker set, and I enjoy DIYing as long as it's nothing complicated, which way shell I start? In one short question, NAD C320BEE or AudioDigit 2020 kit + PSU kit or something based around UcD180AD?
$800?...hell yeh!
Get yourself a Charlise..box it up.....
Get yourself a PS1 (playststation) the very first edition.
Get some fostex FE's ....207's work best......
A few bits and bobs for linking it all up and hey presto!!!!
OK, I may have just added a sub in there somewhere to help out the recipe but trust me ....it works!
Okay, Okay, that's simplifying it a bit, but a little attention to detail and probably another $50 on binding posts, wire and such and you will enjoy Hi-end audio...without doubt!
Welcome to audio DIY!😀
Get yourself a Charlise..box it up.....
Get yourself a PS1 (playststation) the very first edition.
Get some fostex FE's ....207's work best......
A few bits and bobs for linking it all up and hey presto!!!!
OK, I may have just added a sub in there somewhere to help out the recipe but trust me ....it works!
Okay, Okay, that's simplifying it a bit, but a little attention to detail and probably another $50 on binding posts, wire and such and you will enjoy Hi-end audio...without doubt!
Welcome to audio DIY!😀
I don't know what the market is like in EEC for late '70s stuff, but there are some bargains to be had with the more muscular items from that period from Sansui, Pioneer, Marantz, Luxman, Yamaha and others.
This is a US valuation site for some from that era. They're not too happy driving anything that dips too much below 4ohms, but you can pick some pretty good (real) watts per dollar (or Euro) deals on older equipment.
When you've got 250W/ch, with close to 0 rise time for around $300 Australian, new stuff doesn't even come close.
My opinion only, of course...
This is a US valuation site for some from that era. They're not too happy driving anything that dips too much below 4ohms, but you can pick some pretty good (real) watts per dollar (or Euro) deals on older equipment.
When you've got 250W/ch, with close to 0 rise time for around $300 Australian, new stuff doesn't even come close.
My opinion only, of course...
I don't really mean vintage, I want something that sounds good for its price! I don't want high wattage monsters, I'd better build some speaker myself if it sounds better that way.
So, you say spending 400 eur to make a UcD180 is a much better idea than buying some integrated or pre/power amps from NAD or maybe old NAIM or something?
Are Charlize and 41Hz on that level, or they are generally just usable if I can built a 96+ db speaker?
For the tonality of the sound, I much like the way NOS-DACs, Audio Note systems, horn speakers and warm tube amps sound. I am used to a entrly level NAD integrated + CDP system from the 80's - nothing special but I like it's warm sound, actually I find many high-end equipment too hars and intensive for my taste. I have been suggested that I shell have a look at EPOS speakers, because of their warm tone, e.g. the M12.2, but they are only 87db sensitive, so I think I cannot use any (except some 41hz) units to drive them.
Do you suggest DIYing a sensitive speaker or choosing a more powerful amp and pair it with commercial speakers?
So, you say spending 400 eur to make a UcD180 is a much better idea than buying some integrated or pre/power amps from NAD or maybe old NAIM or something?
Are Charlize and 41Hz on that level, or they are generally just usable if I can built a 96+ db speaker?
For the tonality of the sound, I much like the way NOS-DACs, Audio Note systems, horn speakers and warm tube amps sound. I am used to a entrly level NAD integrated + CDP system from the 80's - nothing special but I like it's warm sound, actually I find many high-end equipment too hars and intensive for my taste. I have been suggested that I shell have a look at EPOS speakers, because of their warm tone, e.g. the M12.2, but they are only 87db sensitive, so I think I cannot use any (except some 41hz) units to drive them.
Do you suggest DIYing a sensitive speaker or choosing a more powerful amp and pair it with commercial speakers?
erozsolt,erozsolt said:
I wasn't suggesting that you pick up something just for the watts. Apologies if you misunderstood me. I picked up a (1981) Sansui AU-X1 for $5Aus on eBay and spent $300 having it fixed. The tech was so impressed by the sound that he created his own output driver stages for his GA7ES amp using the ones from this unit as the basis.
When being driven lightly, this unit still has excellent control of my speakers (currently Elac 510 units, with an excellent folded ribbon). And when you turn it up it is still clear and in control. I've probably heard better, but not in my own home. Considering its size, you would think I am lucky that my partner allows it in the house - but she likes the sound and puts up with the "ugly black thing" because of this.
But, DIY is also a good way to go. I wasn't trying to turn you off. I just didn't want you to think that I wanted you to buy a dinosaur just for the weight. If you have the technical ability, then a DIY amplifier would be the way to go - although I guess I'm more into MosFETs than Class D amps. And sensitive speakers generally require a better class of watt (for the first watt) than some of the smaller amplifiers can provide.
But, unless you're planning on trying to fill an exceptionally large room, I would (respecfully) suggest that you try both. By an amp 'cheaply' and also a pair of reasonable 2-ways similarly. Then build a 'better' pair of speakers to compare and then do the same with a DIY amp.
Having a basis for comparison always helps keeps you grounded when making changes. You may (eventually) never turn on the old stuff except when you change you main set-up - but it's always good to keep a "standard" to refer back to each time (even if it's to go "I can't believe I used to listen to that").
erozsolt said:
Class D does not sound good for the price, it sounds incredible good for the price. And not only for the price, so many people all over the board here have reported that recent Class D amps (like UcD) easily outperform conventional amps that cost tens of times more. Best would be if you could listen to one before you decide, not anyone in your neighborhood to give it a listen?
Best regards
Gertjan
Thank for every answer, things really got clearer in my mind!
I think the best I can do is to buy a used integrated now, like the NAD C320BEE and use it for everyday listening. This way I have time to patiently read/build a dual-mono UcD kit, and since UcDs need a preamp anyways, I can use the integrated as a preamp later. By time goes by, I might upgrade to a better pre, like the USG, or if I do some modding, I can enjoy listening even when the poweramp isn't functioning. I can even try some Triamp and Fostex combo, since I'll have a good speaker and a good amp always to compare with.
For the UcD project, does it mean I only have to buy: 2 x UcD180AD, 2 x UcD supply HG, 2 x Transformer (TR100A) and fabricate one or two nice chassis and connect some wires and I'm done? And later on I can do the mods suggested in this forum?
Although, I am a bit curious about the accident when the guy fried his amp and speakers under 10 minutes by not putting a heatsink on his amp. Does it mean, I can ruin my whole system that easily?
So, thing go clearer and clearer, I still need to select a good speaker for the UcD, first some used one (maybe in the UK), later on I can try some DIY full-range. Do you have any idea? My room is about 25 m2. Is a 87db EPOS speaker a good choise for UcD180's or I'd better look for something more sensitive?
I think the best I can do is to buy a used integrated now, like the NAD C320BEE and use it for everyday listening. This way I have time to patiently read/build a dual-mono UcD kit, and since UcDs need a preamp anyways, I can use the integrated as a preamp later. By time goes by, I might upgrade to a better pre, like the USG, or if I do some modding, I can enjoy listening even when the poweramp isn't functioning. I can even try some Triamp and Fostex combo, since I'll have a good speaker and a good amp always to compare with.
For the UcD project, does it mean I only have to buy: 2 x UcD180AD, 2 x UcD supply HG, 2 x Transformer (TR100A) and fabricate one or two nice chassis and connect some wires and I'm done? And later on I can do the mods suggested in this forum?
Although, I am a bit curious about the accident when the guy fried his amp and speakers under 10 minutes by not putting a heatsink on his amp. Does it mean, I can ruin my whole system that easily?
So, thing go clearer and clearer, I still need to select a good speaker for the UcD, first some used one (maybe in the UK), later on I can try some DIY full-range. Do you have any idea? My room is about 25 m2. Is a 87db EPOS speaker a good choise for UcD180's or I'd better look for something more sensitive?
erozsolt said:
Sounds like a very good plan. That way you can also get used to the sound of the conventional amp so that the switch between conventional and UcD can be experienced by yourself. Yes, alln you need is what you listed up above. Of course you need some heatsinking but for UcD180, it is very little what you need. UcD400 may need a bit more. I`m using UcD180 modules already for about two years or so, never had any issues. Seems to be very reliable problem free modules.
Best regards
Gertjan
ghemink said:
You may want to use one of their softstart modules as well, a dual mone supply will draw quite a bit off current during startup, although I doubt whether it is really necessary. Maybe other can comment. (I use softstarts)
Gertjan
UCD and Tripath are both very good. They do have a different sound, but I wouldnt say that they are "warm". For warm, you might look to a Mini-Aleph. As the UCD's are "prebuilt" modules they are easy to implement.
The Tripath's can do this "spooky" good thing that's hard to describe. Either you like it or you don't. It's kind of an unreal dissection of the music that appears to be "detail" at first listen. I haven't heard it with any other amps.
The UCD's sound similar to a good push-pull Class A amp. In fact, I am using them in a tri-amp system with Threshold amps. And neither amp calls attention to itself as being inferior to the other.
That being said... I am slowly switching to an all UCD system.
The Tripath's can do this "spooky" good thing that's hard to describe. Either you like it or you don't. It's kind of an unreal dissection of the music that appears to be "detail" at first listen. I haven't heard it with any other amps.
The UCD's sound similar to a good push-pull Class A amp. In fact, I am using them in a tri-amp system with Threshold amps. And neither amp calls attention to itself as being inferior to the other.
That being said... I am slowly switching to an all UCD system.
>charlize +wharfadele 9.1 warm and spazial sound for only 300€
>good starting point IHMO
They are 86db and 6ohm, are you sure they mate well with charlize?
>good starting point IHMO
They are 86db and 6ohm, are you sure they mate well with charlize?
ok little power....for small room.
amp32 from 41hz works, some watt more but is smd kit.
---go to amp4 kit and a friend for .......for little $ ask for finished kit in 41hz forum
----second charlez for biamp
-----ad sub in future
I hope helps....
amp32 from 41hz works, some watt more but is smd kit.
---go to amp4 kit and a friend for .......for little $ ask for finished kit in 41hz forum
----second charlez for biamp
-----ad sub in future
I hope helps....
Finally I know what I need!
Yesterday I met with a driver and loudspeaker building professional and he was so kind, I had the opportunity to listen many different speakers.
After some listening for both bass-reflex and backloaded horn-speakers, it was so clear that I am in love with "single-driver, full-range, horn" speakers (how lucky I am I found a "full-range" guru in the same city where I live). He even told me he helps me build the speaker and he gave me one of his commercial speaker's plans (the speaker actually costs over 1000 EUR).
You can see the speaker here (it's called NEA EX14)
http://www.sonido.hu/eng/products.htm
And the driver (SFR 144-8):
http://www.sonido.hu/adat_pdf/sfr/sfr144-8.pdf
We were listening on a 2x10 W Class A MOSFET, but he told me, for my listening volumes 2x5W it the maximum I shell need. So, I need to find some high quality 5-10 W amp, preferably warm sounding. What do you advice? Someone told me, that for this type of speaker/music (mostly classic and jazz), even today, still the low wattage SET's are the best, but I didn't had the opportunity to compare (actually that 10W MOSFET was not so bad, but it wasn't anything like "warm"). I very curious about Charlize, I'm sure I will try it, but what else do you recommend?
Yesterday I met with a driver and loudspeaker building professional and he was so kind, I had the opportunity to listen many different speakers.
After some listening for both bass-reflex and backloaded horn-speakers, it was so clear that I am in love with "single-driver, full-range, horn" speakers (how lucky I am I found a "full-range" guru in the same city where I live). He even told me he helps me build the speaker and he gave me one of his commercial speaker's plans (the speaker actually costs over 1000 EUR).
You can see the speaker here (it's called NEA EX14)
http://www.sonido.hu/eng/products.htm
And the driver (SFR 144-8):
http://www.sonido.hu/adat_pdf/sfr/sfr144-8.pdf
We were listening on a 2x10 W Class A MOSFET, but he told me, for my listening volumes 2x5W it the maximum I shell need. So, I need to find some high quality 5-10 W amp, preferably warm sounding. What do you advice? Someone told me, that for this type of speaker/music (mostly classic and jazz), even today, still the low wattage SET's are the best, but I didn't had the opportunity to compare (actually that 10W MOSFET was not so bad, but it wasn't anything like "warm"). I very curious about Charlize, I'm sure I will try it, but what else do you recommend?
I have been using the same backloaded horn that you are planning to buy/make for about a year, and to me it still seems a good choice, though I did not have the chance to listen to fostex drivers at comparable prices in comparable boxes. It takes a time to break in (or your ears to it, who knows).
But as you seem to have fallen in love with it, I'm not trying to convince you. I wouldn't recommend it for background music though, as it is very directional, and you will miss the highs when not sitting in the sweet spot. What can also be important, is that it's not picky for the amps at all. The impedance is constant through the whole frequency range, which makes it very easy to drive. I used it with one of the better sony amps but now I use a gainclone that I made p2p in an afternoon with almost no experience at all.
One more thing that you should know: the 5-10W that they are talking about is not what is >enough< to drive them at listenable levels, but he maximum they can handle. They can do more, but the sound will suffer. Not the obvious and unbearable distortion thing, just strange sounds from a trumpet or a cymbal. Above a certain level the quailty drops very fast, especially in the highs. This level might be too low for you, you have to try. If you want something louder, you can always go for the 200mm version, which is 3dB more sensitive, and can possibly handle more power with ease.
Good luck
torzsok
----
I couldn't fail to disagree with you ... less.
But as you seem to have fallen in love with it, I'm not trying to convince you. I wouldn't recommend it for background music though, as it is very directional, and you will miss the highs when not sitting in the sweet spot. What can also be important, is that it's not picky for the amps at all. The impedance is constant through the whole frequency range, which makes it very easy to drive. I used it with one of the better sony amps but now I use a gainclone that I made p2p in an afternoon with almost no experience at all.
One more thing that you should know: the 5-10W that they are talking about is not what is >enough< to drive them at listenable levels, but he maximum they can handle. They can do more, but the sound will suffer. Not the obvious and unbearable distortion thing, just strange sounds from a trumpet or a cymbal. Above a certain level the quailty drops very fast, especially in the highs. This level might be too low for you, you have to try. If you want something louder, you can always go for the 200mm version, which is 3dB more sensitive, and can possibly handle more power with ease.
Good luck
torzsok
----
I couldn't fail to disagree with you ... less.
confused?
well it seems that you are not confused, just lacking a little confidence.
good you met a new audio friend. I have been listening to my newly constructed AMP6 basic, with a 36 watt 12VDC power supply and am absolutely loving it. There really is "something" about it. I haven't compared it to any other class D amps, but it is the most transparent, detailed and interesting amp I have listened to. I know there are great amps out there, but at $100 Euro for the for amp, power supply and case, I do not think you can do better, and they are almost ideally suited to single driver types.
As for building the kit, the biggest hastle is handling the ESD components. The surface mount stuff are only a few diodes, capacitors. If I can do it, anybody can...
I'm thinking that a Sony Playstation 1 (SCH1001 or similar), a respectable tuner (if good radio is available) , some decent speaker wire , and some decent interconnects (ask your new audio buddy...) I'm thinking for something under 3-400 Euros you could have something absolutely killer...for a complete system
well it seems that you are not confused, just lacking a little confidence.
good you met a new audio friend. I have been listening to my newly constructed AMP6 basic, with a 36 watt 12VDC power supply and am absolutely loving it. There really is "something" about it. I haven't compared it to any other class D amps, but it is the most transparent, detailed and interesting amp I have listened to. I know there are great amps out there, but at $100 Euro for the for amp, power supply and case, I do not think you can do better, and they are almost ideally suited to single driver types.
As for building the kit, the biggest hastle is handling the ESD components. The surface mount stuff are only a few diodes, capacitors. If I can do it, anybody can...
I'm thinking that a Sony Playstation 1 (SCH1001 or similar), a respectable tuner (if good radio is available) , some decent speaker wire , and some decent interconnects (ask your new audio buddy...) I'm thinking for something under 3-400 Euros you could have something absolutely killer...for a complete system
Actually now I am onto just speaker and amp building, I will take care about the other parts later!
I think I'd better order both the Charlize and AMP6 basic! Do you know if AMP6 basic could work from a 12V car battery? For 41hz, is it the best model for efficient horn speakers (or I shell have a look at AMP3)?
I think I'd better order both the Charlize and AMP6 basic! Do you know if AMP6 basic could work from a 12V car battery? For 41hz, is it the best model for efficient horn speakers (or I shell have a look at AMP3)?
car battery :lead and acid at home....is not too health care!! IHMO
if you go to AC power supply go to amp4 30w on 8ohm ,best chip and distortion for tripath .....for 49$
I thinking for amp11 a definitive class-t amp
if you go to AC power supply go to amp4 30w on 8ohm ,best chip and distortion for tripath .....for 49$
I thinking for amp11 a definitive class-t amp
car battery...
nope.
use a SLA 12 Volt battery and a charger..SLA= Sealed Lead Acid battery-- no fumes, off gasing etc. New "smart" chargers stop charging when the battery (or batteries) is (are) fully charged. The current draw is very small and I'm sure a single charge would last for some time.
nope.
use a SLA 12 Volt battery and a charger..SLA= Sealed Lead Acid battery-- no fumes, off gasing etc. New "smart" chargers stop charging when the battery (or batteries) is (are) fully charged. The current draw is very small and I'm sure a single charge would last for some time.
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