Hi! This is my first post in the forum, so i hope i dont ask some dummy stuff.
Im studying product design and for a little holiday break project I wanted to build some 2-way speakers, specifically 2 two-ways for left and right and a seperate sub. I've figured out most of the things (i think) like the needed amp, woofer etc.
Im gonna build the enclose myself, but there's still 2 open questions:
What kinda crossover do I need for my 2-way speaker design?
Im planning to use a "full range" driver (70-20.000hz, 8ohm) and a small tweeter (3.500-40.000hz, 8ohm).
Is that crossover way to "big", should I just get a driver with less range as i would be running a sub and tweeter anyways?
In any case how do I choose the right Hz for my crossover? Most of the things I can find are either way over my head or made to for a sub/midrange crossover.
If any of this is completely dumb im sorry, just not familiar with this stuff at all.
Thank you!
cheers,
Felix
Im studying product design and for a little holiday break project I wanted to build some 2-way speakers, specifically 2 two-ways for left and right and a seperate sub. I've figured out most of the things (i think) like the needed amp, woofer etc.
Im gonna build the enclose myself, but there's still 2 open questions:
What kinda crossover do I need for my 2-way speaker design?
Im planning to use a "full range" driver (70-20.000hz, 8ohm) and a small tweeter (3.500-40.000hz, 8ohm).
Is that crossover way to "big", should I just get a driver with less range as i would be running a sub and tweeter anyways?
In any case how do I choose the right Hz for my crossover? Most of the things I can find are either way over my head or made to for a sub/midrange crossover.
If any of this is completely dumb im sorry, just not familiar with this stuff at all.
Thank you!
cheers,
Felix
The answer to your 'what kind of crossover do I need' is: one which is custom designed for your chosen drivers and cabinet configuration.
If this is your first project, maybe consider a kit or proved design which has been built by many happy DIYers: that way, the hard work is done and you can use your design skills to come up with a really cool looking cabinet. For example, I've seen cabinets in the shape of Harley engines, drivers in PVC tubes and even spherical ones.
Here are a couple of links which feature designs at various price points:
Speaker Design Works
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages
If you're using a sub anyway, your project won't need the bass extension of many of those designs but you will get some ideas.
Good luck and have fun
Geoff
If this is your first project, maybe consider a kit or proved design which has been built by many happy DIYers: that way, the hard work is done and you can use your design skills to come up with a really cool looking cabinet. For example, I've seen cabinets in the shape of Harley engines, drivers in PVC tubes and even spherical ones.
Here are a couple of links which feature designs at various price points:
Speaker Design Works
Paul Carmody's DIY Speaker Pages
If you're using a sub anyway, your project won't need the bass extension of many of those designs but you will get some ideas.
Good luck and have fun
Geoff
Using drivers with lots of overlap is actually a good thing for a noob.
Lots of overlap allows more flexibility, a simpler crossover, and it means mistakes are less bad.
That said, I also approve of the suggestion to use a kit - or to can copy an existing DIY build that looks good + measures well.
Note that some commercial kits are quite similar to your idea.
For example, this kit uses a "full range" driver as a midrange.
Hobby Hifi Visaton B80 - Speaker KIT without Cabinet Standard buy at hifisound.de
...and so does this one:
Scan-Speak Discovery 3-Way Classic - Jantzen-audio.com
With a bit of hunting around (and maybe asking on the full range forum) I imagine you can find an existing kit or build that is 100% like your idea.
Read about beaming & breakup of woofers at higher frequencies. In some of the other two way threads. Beaming means the frequency response quoted is only a couple of degrees 1 m right in front of the driver. Breakup means distortion at higher frequencies.
Listening to some products then looking up specs helps choose crossover frequency. There are no highfi stores left in my metropolis, only Best Bargain and some Musician supplies. Best bargain only carries full range & doesn't demonstrate anything. My local band supply carries Peavey, which has speakers that look a like Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater I found so impressive in the cinema near my home in 1967. So I took a listen. The SP5 can sound like upper range of a piano but is gutless on lower bass. The SP2g (2004 spec) sounds like a piano even in the low octave. The SP2g crosses over at 2000 hz, since it has a ferrifluid filled horn tweeter that can go full power down to 1200 hz. I bought some SP2-XT with same tweeter, that crosses over at 1200 hz. They sounded great @ 1/8 w to 70 w in my music room. These were stolen September, so I'm looking at building some ugly thief resistant copies.
Other 2 ways out there include Klipsch La Scala that are running $10000 each on ebay, and JBL 4722 that is running $1700 on ebay for 4.
I've read ESP Google Search and wonder why he, and the sticky above, are so fixated on controlling the inductive rise in impedance of the woofer as frequency rises. Paragraphs and paragraphs on that. The woofer I'm thinking of buying has volume that increases 12 db from 800 hz to 2k hz. I'm going to crossover at 1200 copying SP2-XT. So why worry about a zobel across the woofer? Eminence Delta-pro 15A. Mr. Elliott also goes on & on about compensating for the impedance losses in the steel frame. The Delta-pro line has aluminum frames. What, me worry? I've taken apart one decent sounding 2 way, a KLH23, with 10" & 3" cone drivers, and it had one capacitor series the tweeter. Nothing on the woofer.
What I worry about, all the 15" and 18" woofers drop 20-30 db in output from 100 hz to 40 hz. 20 db down @ 54 hz. How on earth do designers like peavey get 54 hz only 3 db down out of the 1505-8kakdt woofer in the SP2? Especially at 101 db 1w1m with a 99 db 1w1m driver?
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If you're looking for a simple answer, Felix, then here goes nothing!
Firstly, it is unlikely that a full range driver will give a smooth output all the way up to 20,000Hz.
However, all it may need is a 'helper' tweeter to extend the response beyond, say, 9000Hz.
In that case, the crossover can be as simple as a 2.2uF plastic film capacitor in series with the positive 8 ohm tweeter lead.
The purists may now be shaking their heads, but for a 'dumb' (your word) beginner it's a good place to start! 😎
For a more sophisticated response, we would have to have details of which drivers you are thinking of choosing.
First of all thank you all for the replies!
I havent made a final decision on the exact drivers to use, but as its a first project its defenitely going to be some budget stuff.
Overall i want to go with a smaller 200w setup, so 50+50 for L&R and 100 for the sub.
Tweeter whise im currently looking at a Dayton Audio AMT Mini-8.
For midrange im looking at a Monacor SP-4/60PRO 4'' or a similar sized full range driver if you suggest going with one instead.
I havent decided on a sub, but as thats not going to affect my crossover needs i suppose it doesnt really matter currently.
I hope this helps you guys. Im happy soldering a crossover setup, but even happier buying a premade one.
Cheers,
Felix
I havent made a final decision on the exact drivers to use, but as its a first project its defenitely going to be some budget stuff.
Overall i want to go with a smaller 200w setup, so 50+50 for L&R and 100 for the sub.
Tweeter whise im currently looking at a Dayton Audio AMT Mini-8.
For midrange im looking at a Monacor SP-4/60PRO 4'' or a similar sized full range driver if you suggest going with one instead.
I havent decided on a sub, but as thats not going to affect my crossover needs i suppose it doesnt really matter currently.
I hope this helps you guys. Im happy soldering a crossover setup, but even happier buying a premade one.
Cheers,
Felix
The important thing is to be prepared to fool around with the crossover so as to
get what you want. That usually means having some different values of parts available
and having the crossover accessible so that you can adjust/substitute parts while listening
and/or measuring. Take your time and enjoy the process.
get what you want. That usually means having some different values of parts available
and having the crossover accessible so that you can adjust/substitute parts while listening
and/or measuring. Take your time and enjoy the process.
50 watts is usually more than enough for small drivers.
Unless you do something wacky, your max SPL will be limited by the excursion capability of the 4" driver, not by power handling.
Piston Excursion calculator
Put in the numbers for a small speaker (a 4" driver with 1 Xmax) at 100Hz, and you'll see what I mean.
--
The driver pair you suggest would work quite well.
It would probably suit a simple crossover at maybe 3kHz, because the Monacor looks a little bit lumpy at about 6kHz.
However, I think there are smoother drivers for the same $.
I'd personally go for a more expensive full range driver and a cheaper tweeter.
e.g. the Visaton B80, or one of the Scanspeak "midranges", or something else of that type.
They have been independently measured many times, e.g.
5F8422T01-10F8414G10
Note that the 10F gets to about 9kHz before the lumpiness (breakup) occurs.
That is good: it means the problems are further outside the range where human hearing is most sensitive.
--
The Dayton AMTs seem OK (I have a bigger pair), but not amazing. I think that many cheap (under $10) conventional tweeters would do just as well in this role.
Unless you do something wacky, your max SPL will be limited by the excursion capability of the 4" driver, not by power handling.
Piston Excursion calculator
Put in the numbers for a small speaker (a 4" driver with 1 Xmax) at 100Hz, and you'll see what I mean.
--
The driver pair you suggest would work quite well.
It would probably suit a simple crossover at maybe 3kHz, because the Monacor looks a little bit lumpy at about 6kHz.
However, I think there are smoother drivers for the same $.
I'd personally go for a more expensive full range driver and a cheaper tweeter.
e.g. the Visaton B80, or one of the Scanspeak "midranges", or something else of that type.
They have been independently measured many times, e.g.
5F8422T01-10F8414G10
Note that the 10F gets to about 9kHz before the lumpiness (breakup) occurs.
That is good: it means the problems are further outside the range where human hearing is most sensitive.
--
The Dayton AMTs seem OK (I have a bigger pair), but not amazing. I think that many cheap (under $10) conventional tweeters would do just as well in this role.
For something completely different:
6" + 2"
Pair a cheap-but-good 15cm(ish) woofer with a ~5cm metal "mid tweeter".
If the woofer is smooth, you could put the crossover anywhere from about 300Hz to 3,000Hz and get a workable system.
It will be bigger, but the Xmax limited SPL will be MUCH higher (like 10 or 15dB higher) than an equivalent 4" + 1" system.
For the woofer there are jillions of options.
For the 2", there are a handful of companies that make good units. Jordan was the company that pioneered this type, but now there are many competitors.
I have a pair of these, and like them.
Peerless by Tymphany NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
I use them, actively crossed at 700Hz, in a big system.
Fountek and other brands sell units that seem very similar. I didn't go with the Tymphany units cos I think they are the best example of the type (I don't have an opinion on which is the "best"), but because I am in Australia - and getting fast+free shipping makes a really big difference here (I got them from Digikey).
6" + 2"
Pair a cheap-but-good 15cm(ish) woofer with a ~5cm metal "mid tweeter".
If the woofer is smooth, you could put the crossover anywhere from about 300Hz to 3,000Hz and get a workable system.
It will be bigger, but the Xmax limited SPL will be MUCH higher (like 10 or 15dB higher) than an equivalent 4" + 1" system.
For the woofer there are jillions of options.
For the 2", there are a handful of companies that make good units. Jordan was the company that pioneered this type, but now there are many competitors.
I have a pair of these, and like them.
Peerless by Tymphany NE65W-04 2" Full Range Woofer
I use them, actively crossed at 700Hz, in a big system.
Fountek and other brands sell units that seem very similar. I didn't go with the Tymphany units cos I think they are the best example of the type (I don't have an opinion on which is the "best"), but because I am in Australia - and getting fast+free shipping makes a really big difference here (I got them from Digikey).
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