fs: 23
Qms: 13.82
Qes: 0.38
Qts: 0.37
Xmax: 9.2 (Both Ways)
sd: 132.8 sq. in
Re: 3.33
I'm currently using two of these in a 8.6 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 28 Hz.
I was considering getting the Adire Audio Tempest. However, it seems the no. is only 0.508% where as the driver listed is 1.419%
I'm know the Tempest will blow this driver away from 50Hz down, however, it looks like its not loud enough from frequencies 60 - 80Hz. (Compared to the drivers TS posted)
What do you think?
Qms: 13.82
Qes: 0.38
Qts: 0.37
Xmax: 9.2 (Both Ways)
sd: 132.8 sq. in
Re: 3.33
I'm currently using two of these in a 8.6 cubic foot enclosure tuned to 28 Hz.
I was considering getting the Adire Audio Tempest. However, it seems the no. is only 0.508% where as the driver listed is 1.419%
I'm know the Tempest will blow this driver away from 50Hz down, however, it looks like its not loud enough from frequencies 60 - 80Hz. (Compared to the drivers TS posted)
What do you think?
Pass DIY Addict
Joined 2000
Paid Member
What is the Vas? This figure is important to deterniming appropriate cabinet size. Is your intended cabinet vented or sealed? Is looks like this drive is best suited to a vented box, but could go either way.
When you say "Xmax: 9.2 (Both Ways)" does this mean "peak-to-peak" or "one way"? (I'm guessing its "peak-to-peak".
You didn't mention the price of this driver, but it might be that a single 12" driver from another manufacturer may outperform two of these drivers at lower cost and with a smaller cabinet...
When you say "Xmax: 9.2 (Both Ways)" does this mean "peak-to-peak" or "one way"? (I'm guessing its "peak-to-peak".
You didn't mention the price of this driver, but it might be that a single 12" driver from another manufacturer may outperform two of these drivers at lower cost and with a smaller cabinet...
Hello Eric
I knew I forgot something !
Vas: 16.23 cu. ft
Yes the Xmax is Peak to Peak (Not to mistake it with Xmech)
The price of this driver is not a issue, for I own 8 of them. 😀
Basically I'm trying to find one that will give me the same response, however giving me more than a no. 1.419%
(Thats for one driver) in 8 ohms. The ones I have are 4 ohms,
and two in a box (2 ohms) puts too much stress on the amplifiers, with not enough output.
I getting 95.5 dB 1 watt one meter, and I need at least 99 dB
I'm leaning toward the Eminence Magnum 15 LF in which will
give me 101 db, 1 watt one meter. (fb 42.64Hz)
Your Thoughts..............
I knew I forgot something !Vas: 16.23 cu. ft
Yes the Xmax is Peak to Peak (Not to mistake it with Xmech)
The price of this driver is not a issue, for I own 8 of them. 😀
Basically I'm trying to find one that will give me the same response, however giving me more than a no. 1.419%
(Thats for one driver) in 8 ohms. The ones I have are 4 ohms,
and two in a box (2 ohms) puts too much stress on the amplifiers, with not enough output.
I getting 95.5 dB 1 watt one meter, and I need at least 99 dB
I'm leaning toward the Eminence Magnum 15 LF in which will
give me 101 db, 1 watt one meter. (fb 42.64Hz)
Your Thoughts..............
Pass DIY Addict
Joined 2000
Paid Member
"Vas: 16.23 cu. ft" 😱 That's a rather large box! Adding two drivers will require 32 cu ft! This is an enormous cabinet. You can make the cabinet much smaller, but then you will require heavy equalization down low to bring up the low end respone. Doing this requires a substantially larger amp and introduces the risk of over-excursion and clipping...
Have you used WIN ISD sub simulation software? If not, do a search on "winisd" and download the software and then plug in your T/S parameters to see what size box you need to get the performance you are looking for.
Have you used WIN ISD sub simulation software? If not, do a search on "winisd" and download the software and then plug in your T/S parameters to see what size box you need to get the performance you are looking for.
Eric.
I use Bass Box Pro. I highly recomend anyone seriously into box building Stay Away From Those Free Programs
Two drivers are sharing an 8 cubic foot box, tuned to 28.43 Hz.
Giving me a - 3dB at 41 Hz. (Normalized Amplitude Response)
Lowest usable Frequency 27 Hz (- 10dB 2.83 volt, 1 meter)
This box was designed to use in groups of four, so - 10 dB, 2.83 volts, 1 meter is 19.5 Hz
After running a simulation with the Eminence Magnum 15 LO, I found out it wasn't worth the investment to upgrade.
Amplifier power isn't an issue for each driver will get 400 watts RMS power.
So, I pretty much ended up answering my own question.
I use Bass Box Pro. I highly recomend anyone seriously into box building Stay Away From Those Free Programs
Two drivers are sharing an 8 cubic foot box, tuned to 28.43 Hz.
Giving me a - 3dB at 41 Hz. (Normalized Amplitude Response)
Lowest usable Frequency 27 Hz (- 10dB 2.83 volt, 1 meter)
This box was designed to use in groups of four, so - 10 dB, 2.83 volts, 1 meter is 19.5 Hz
After running a simulation with the Eminence Magnum 15 LO, I found out it wasn't worth the investment to upgrade.
Amplifier power isn't an issue for each driver will get 400 watts RMS power.
So, I pretty much ended up answering my own question.
I have to disagree with you on that comment about the free programs. The free programs are great for modeling simple designs like ported, sealed, single- and dual-reflex bandpass subwoofers, and I have found that they were plenty accurate for my project MTM. It's not completely finished yet but the boxes have the crossovers and wiring in them (just naked MDF at the moment) and I popped the drivers in and gave a listen (like tasting the cookie batter before it gets baked) and the speaker sounded remarkable. I hear a whole other dimension in detail with the aluminum domes in the tweeters that I would never have heard with my current paper cone tweets, and the bass is solid, for a speaker that only uses 5.25" woofers. My speaker design plays my Bela Fleck and the Flecktones CD quite well.
Make sure your specs are reputable. It's best to measure the T/S parameters of the driver yourself. I bought my drivers from Parts Express, who measures them anyway.
Make sure your specs are reputable. It's best to measure the T/S parameters of the driver yourself. I bought my drivers from Parts Express, who measures them anyway.
Hold on a minute, not all freeware programs are as bad as you might think. Here is a screenshot of outputs from both LspCAD (a significantly better program than BB) and Subwoofer Simulator (another freeware). As you can see, the outputs are practically equal. Give SubSim the default sound speed and air density of LspCAD and this screenshot should look even better still.
Bass Box is good, but not that good to justify its price tag. It doesn't even model motor/suspension non-linearities, which makes it no better than any of the freeware programs. BB does have 'wizards' etc. to show for it, but again not worth the retail price.
Can BB do what these programs do? For free? 😀
JMO 🙂
Isaac
Attachments
BAM,
I agree. Free programs are great for simple designs. However when your seriously into designing boxes, freeware false short.
Isaac,
Bass Box pro offers cone displacement, maximum acoustic
power, and, maximum electric input power. I wouldn't
call that something every freeware offers.
_________________________________________________
One of the MAJOR pluses is the driver data base they offer. Which is very helpful when you need to compare different brand drivers
in the same enclosure. And unlike Winsd they are the correct numbers.
Although I dabbled with Subwoofer Simulator, Unibox, and LspCad, I was reffering to WinIsD.(Because it was mentioned previously) They are somewhat correct on their Normalised gain. However, their port recomendations are totaly off.
Made 10 Dual Eighteens using Winsd thinking they were tuned
to 43Hz. Upon getting Eminence designer (then Bass Box Pro) I found out that they were tuned to 36.32 Hz. And as far as LEAP is concerned Bass Box Pro is correct.
So, I stand corrected. If your seriously into cabinet design, Stay Away From WinSD
I hope this clear things up. 🙂
I agree. Free programs are great for simple designs. However when your seriously into designing boxes, freeware false short.
Isaac,
Bass Box pro offers cone displacement, maximum acoustic
power, and, maximum electric input power. I wouldn't
call that something every freeware offers.
_________________________________________________
One of the MAJOR pluses is the driver data base they offer. Which is very helpful when you need to compare different brand drivers
in the same enclosure. And unlike Winsd they are the correct numbers.
Although I dabbled with Subwoofer Simulator, Unibox, and LspCad, I was reffering to WinIsD.(Because it was mentioned previously) They are somewhat correct on their Normalised gain. However, their port recomendations are totaly off.
Made 10 Dual Eighteens using Winsd thinking they were tuned
to 43Hz. Upon getting Eminence designer (then Bass Box Pro) I found out that they were tuned to 36.32 Hz. And as far as LEAP is concerned Bass Box Pro is correct.
So, I stand corrected. If your seriously into cabinet design, Stay Away From WinSD
I hope this clear things up. 🙂
The freeware programs mentioned here offer cone displacement as well. (SubSim displays one-way peak, not RMS, excursions)
I was refering to this feature of BB when I mentioned its inability to model non-linearities. BB is based on small-signal models, which means its excursion-power-limited curves are optimistic at best.
Don't be so hard on winISD 😀 The release candidate will surely be a good one 🙂
Cheers,
Isaac
f4ier said:
It offers whatever you configure it. Its just a matter of changing your watt/volt settings. As for the Xmax, it will measure whatever you enter. One way, peak to peak, Xmech
It just a matter of changing the wattage settings. If a
speaker is rated 1200 Program, 2400 peak, just switch the wattage to 2400 to get the results your looking for.
___________________________________________________
I think the difference lies on you using one woofer, tuned
low, to achieve results, where I would use a minimum of
eight woofers tuned higher, to get the total low end what
your one sub produce. Not to mention Efficency is manditory, where as you can increase your dB's with the help of the room. Two different worlds require to different programs.
The Adire Audio Tempest is great for Home use, however, being so inefficent, its worthless for my applications. I would be better
of with Two McCauley's 6174's (8 ohm version) which would give me a 8 dB gain over the Tempest. For where as the Tempest is
no. 0.508% at 4 ohms, two 6174's are 2.978% a total of 4 ohms.
I believe this is why your unhappy with Bass Box Pro. Your using Home Audio speakers, and I'm using Pro Audio.
Best Regards,
The above-mentioned freeware programs can do that too. One may specify his/her power/voltage, driver(s), box, room acoustics/dimensions, calculation options and so on and see the results. They are totally customizable 
The point I was trying to bring across is that BB does not have accurate Max Acoustic Power and Max Electric Power curves because its internal models are only of the small-signal type. So it does not matter if you put RMS, short term, program or music power -- the results are not accurate. This makes BB no better than any freeware tool. To accurately calculate max output/input curves, non-linearties must be considered -- something BB is incapable of doing... At least not yet 🙂
I think there is confusion here. A simulator is a simulator -- BB or any other program cannot discriminate between drivers, boxes etc. It does not know a pro, car or home driver from another. These programs are basically input/ouput machines 😎
Over and out 🙂
The point I was trying to bring across is that BB does not have accurate Max Acoustic Power and Max Electric Power curves because its internal models are only of the small-signal type. So it does not matter if you put RMS, short term, program or music power -- the results are not accurate. This makes BB no better than any freeware tool. To accurately calculate max output/input curves, non-linearties must be considered -- something BB is incapable of doing... At least not yet 🙂
I think there is confusion here. A simulator is a simulator -- BB or any other program cannot discriminate between drivers, boxes etc. It does not know a pro, car or home driver from another. These programs are basically input/ouput machines 😎
Over and out 🙂
This Is Why I Give A Higher Status To This Forum Oppose The Other Ones On The Net. More Informative (Fundamentally)
OK.
Now I see how your looking at it.
Yes. I will agree the Simulations are somewhat the same.
However, what Free software will offer a vast driverbase (Having the right T S Parameters)
Will be able to recognize bogus specs.
Will be able to add or subtract bracing, and/or fiberglass which was added in the box.
Be able to compare different drivers in the same cabinet at a touch of a mouse click instead of building it from scratch
Show me one free program,(Insert Link Here) that can all those listed. With the usual features we discussed previously.The closest would've been WinISD Pro, but their driverbase is steered around home to car audio,(Accuracy TS???) and, like the WinISD, their port measurements are inaccurate.
Only then, I will change my mind toward Free Programs.
Although you might feel BB is not worth it, having the correct TS Parameters Database is worth the money alone. (In my opinion)
I remember having a debate with on fellow claiming Eminence Killomax 18 was 97 dB, where BB stated that number was wrong and much lower. (Which later on, Eminence admited on their site)
Not to mention certain companies that would freely offer their TS Parameters on their site, won't anymore.
As for the Maximum Acoustic/ Electrical, no program can guarantee
that. The only way to have full guarantee such measurements is real world conditions. Its like building a sub, wanting a strong 30Hz, and not paying attention to the QTS.
OK.
Now I see how your looking at it.
Yes. I will agree the Simulations are somewhat the same.
However, what Free software will offer a vast driverbase (Having the right T S Parameters)
Will be able to recognize bogus specs.
Will be able to add or subtract bracing, and/or fiberglass which was added in the box.
Be able to compare different drivers in the same cabinet at a touch of a mouse click instead of building it from scratch
Show me one free program,(Insert Link Here) that can all those listed. With the usual features we discussed previously.The closest would've been WinISD Pro, but their driverbase is steered around home to car audio,(Accuracy TS???) and, like the WinISD, their port measurements are inaccurate.
Only then, I will change my mind toward Free Programs.
Although you might feel BB is not worth it, having the correct TS Parameters Database is worth the money alone. (In my opinion)
I remember having a debate with on fellow claiming Eminence Killomax 18 was 97 dB, where BB stated that number was wrong and much lower. (Which later on, Eminence admited on their site)
Not to mention certain companies that would freely offer their TS Parameters on their site, won't anymore.
As for the Maximum Acoustic/ Electrical, no program can guarantee
that. The only way to have full guarantee such measurements is real world conditions. Its like building a sub, wanting a strong 30Hz, and not paying attention to the QTS.
It's true that winISD's database contain errors, but c'mon -- the program is free 😀 -- a small price to pay wouldn't you agree? The effort to glance through your driver's recorded specs for discrepancies is negligible.
Besides, even manufacturers' specifications can be off by as much as 50%. So even if a database is totally correct as per the manufacturers' own data, the driver data you're using may still be not representative of the actual driver(s) you have at hand. The question of accuracy is still there.
Great programs such as SoundEasy do not come with preloaded drivers for this particular reason. Instead, they include measurement tools to extract non-linearities as well as other standard parameters. The numbers in your copy of a program should only contain your measurements -- not someone else's.
Because of the infinite possibilities of bracing style, method and orientation, most program developers leave this part to the user. Some time ago I made a program that could consider braces, ports, wall thickness, driver displacements etc. It used to be shown in my site. But I can't remember if I ever did share it to the DIY community, I can't even remember where I put it
I have to keep this in mind for the next SubSim version.
Fiberglass or enclosure filling is supported by the freeware tools mentioned thus far.
I can't name a free one that can do it all (at least not yet), but I have already named a group of free tools that can do the same and more.
Another reason why I never recommend BB is because LspCAD is a much better program for the same price. And that SoundEasy offers much-much better value for money at US$250.
Besides, even manufacturers' specifications can be off by as much as 50%. So even if a database is totally correct as per the manufacturers' own data, the driver data you're using may still be not representative of the actual driver(s) you have at hand. The question of accuracy is still there.
Great programs such as SoundEasy do not come with preloaded drivers for this particular reason. Instead, they include measurement tools to extract non-linearities as well as other standard parameters. The numbers in your copy of a program should only contain your measurements -- not someone else's.
Because of the infinite possibilities of bracing style, method and orientation, most program developers leave this part to the user. Some time ago I made a program that could consider braces, ports, wall thickness, driver displacements etc. It used to be shown in my site. But I can't remember if I ever did share it to the DIY community, I can't even remember where I put it
I have to keep this in mind for the next SubSim version.Fiberglass or enclosure filling is supported by the freeware tools mentioned thus far.
I can't name a free one that can do it all (at least not yet), but I have already named a group of free tools that can do the same and more.
Another reason why I never recommend BB is because LspCAD is a much better program for the same price. And that SoundEasy offers much-much better value for money at US$250.
f4ier said:
Thanks to WinISD, it gave me the wrong port measurments, giving me 36 Hz measurements, when it (WinISD) claimed 43Hz.
I wouldn't have mind if I made one box. But when you've made ten cabinets you would feel the same way ......................😡
Some time ago I made a program that could consider braces, ports, wall thickness, driver displacements etc. It used to be shown in my site. But I can't remember if I ever did share it to the DIY community, I can't even remember where I put it
Well find It!!! It could be the next biggest thing next to Velcro 🙂Thank you for the links. I may go the Sound Easy route.
Best Regards,
Ouch! That must have hurt 
Freeware or commercial... always double check numbers That's why I double check my programs before I release them. And when I finally share them, I ask users to point out possible errors and make suggestions.
Requiring up to millions of lines of code, a program can never be 100% bug-free. Take Windows for example
😀 (SubSim is nothing by comparison; weighing in at just over 17,000 code lines).
SoundEasy is a powerful program, you won't be disappointed 🙂
Cheers ,
Isaac
Freeware or commercial... always double check numbers That's why I double check my programs before I release them. And when I finally share them, I ask users to point out possible errors and make suggestions.Requiring up to millions of lines of code, a program can never be 100% bug-free. Take Windows for example
😀 (SubSim is nothing by comparison; weighing in at just over 17,000 code lines).SoundEasy is a powerful program, you won't be disappointed 🙂
Cheers ,
Isaac
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