Clonnable commercial speakers
Hello, long time no post.
I was wondering if anyone had a list of fully reverse-engineered commercial speakers, like ProAc Response or whatever.
And, of course, those speakers must be known not to use custom-made drivers in order to fully qualify as "clonnable".
In case it's not obvious by now, by 'clone' I mean an exact copy: crossover schematic and part values (if not exact manufacturers and types of parts), driver models, driver placement, exact dimensions of enclosure, etc. You get the idea...
Of course, one could argue that there is no guarantee for consistency of driver parameters as they are known to vary within the same model, so there'se no really accurate clone... which is true. But still...
Hello, long time no post.
I was wondering if anyone had a list of fully reverse-engineered commercial speakers, like ProAc Response or whatever.
And, of course, those speakers must be known not to use custom-made drivers in order to fully qualify as "clonnable".
In case it's not obvious by now, by 'clone' I mean an exact copy: crossover schematic and part values (if not exact manufacturers and types of parts), driver models, driver placement, exact dimensions of enclosure, etc. You get the idea...
Of course, one could argue that there is no guarantee for consistency of driver parameters as they are known to vary within the same model, so there'se no really accurate clone... which is true. But still...
I believe that commercial speaker clone projects are more common than it would appear, but that public awareness and availability is more limited in some countries, mostly the major English speaking ones (US/UK/Canada/Australia) due to legal issues. I understand some French and I noticed that schematics of clones of French-made speakers such as JM Lab to name one, is relatively easy to find on French DIY sites, and I understand that Asian sites are a good source as well. My guess would be that what applies in France may as well be the case in Germany, Italy, etc. but obviously what info you have acess to depends on the language(s) you understand.
Indeed Focal makes the drivers for JM-lab and Dynaudio makes commercial speakers (dunno if the're using custom made drivers thou..)
and drivers. I have an old pair of BNS "type 200" speakers with Seas W111 woof and Vifa HT-200 tweet (still available).
When I was 14 years old I used to copy Bose 301 speakers for one tenth the price...
But don't know of anyone who made a list of the cloneables....
and drivers. I have an old pair of BNS "type 200" speakers with Seas W111 woof and Vifa HT-200 tweet (still available).
When I was 14 years old I used to copy Bose 301 speakers for one tenth the price...
But don't know of anyone who made a list of the cloneables....
It sure would be nice to have easy access to schematics from those high-end manufacturers in the US, UK, Canada and Australia who use OEM drivers in their designs, as there are quite a few of them. I wouldn't mind building a Totem clone for example, especially now that Totem has switched to Hi-Vi from Dynaudio...
As for Dynaudio itself, I think the new drivers they use in their speakers are different from the few that are still available on the DIY market 🙁
As for Dynaudio itself, I think the new drivers they use in their speakers are different from the few that are still available on the DIY market 🙁
Just some ideas
Some good speakers that could be cloned:
Wilson Sophia, allthough the woofer isn't exactly the same as the 10" aluminum revelator, it's pretty close and should work nicely. Despite what other say, the TD5 isn't that bas as lond as you take your time with the crossover. Wilson does get older and somewhat special tweeters, but that dosn't make the TD5 unusable. I would try to remove the dome an surround from an audiom TLR and put it into the faceplate for a tc 120. but you would have to be very carefull.
Von Schweikert VR-4Sr. and 5 Mk II All drivers are still available, but some are being discontinued as we speak. I would probably go straight to the 5 since there is little doubt abou the woofers. and the other drivers are easy. The crossovers are most likely complicated, and the cabinet alighnments are also, so you would probably need the real thing to copy.
I hate their speakers but there is allways Joseph Audio.
Kharma Ceramique - The ceramiqu look like standard stuff, but their upper line are definitely custom drivers.
NHT xD - Nice system, but since most of the cost is in the amps and the DEQX, it kind of defeats the point of using the drivers they did.
Magico Monitors - The mid woofer is available for a limited window each year at e-speakers. The crossover is pretty simple, looks like 2nd order, by the number of components.
Most of the Avalon line, and there are a few sites available from those who have done it.
JM Labs, is kind of tough since they stopped selling drivers to the public. The best you could do would be to get in the ballpark of a 2000-2002 Utopia, but not really, and the drivers are ungodly expensive for what you get. That's why there are still so many remaining, years after they were discontinued.
Krell's look pretty off the shelf, but I have never really been impressed.
Sonus faber - others have done it, and I'm told with excelent results
Some good speakers that could be cloned:
Wilson Sophia, allthough the woofer isn't exactly the same as the 10" aluminum revelator, it's pretty close and should work nicely. Despite what other say, the TD5 isn't that bas as lond as you take your time with the crossover. Wilson does get older and somewhat special tweeters, but that dosn't make the TD5 unusable. I would try to remove the dome an surround from an audiom TLR and put it into the faceplate for a tc 120. but you would have to be very carefull.
Von Schweikert VR-4Sr. and 5 Mk II All drivers are still available, but some are being discontinued as we speak. I would probably go straight to the 5 since there is little doubt abou the woofers. and the other drivers are easy. The crossovers are most likely complicated, and the cabinet alighnments are also, so you would probably need the real thing to copy.
I hate their speakers but there is allways Joseph Audio.
Kharma Ceramique - The ceramiqu look like standard stuff, but their upper line are definitely custom drivers.
NHT xD - Nice system, but since most of the cost is in the amps and the DEQX, it kind of defeats the point of using the drivers they did.
Magico Monitors - The mid woofer is available for a limited window each year at e-speakers. The crossover is pretty simple, looks like 2nd order, by the number of components.
Most of the Avalon line, and there are a few sites available from those who have done it.
JM Labs, is kind of tough since they stopped selling drivers to the public. The best you could do would be to get in the ballpark of a 2000-2002 Utopia, but not really, and the drivers are ungodly expensive for what you get. That's why there are still so many remaining, years after they were discontinued.
Krell's look pretty off the shelf, but I have never really been impressed.
Sonus faber - others have done it, and I'm told with excelent results
2 slightly more unconventional designs that may be worth investigating are the original Wilson Benesch ACT 1 speakers and the Impulse H2's.
Both are British designs and are no longer in production, but both used conventional drivers and were very well received.
The Wilson Benesch speakers used standard Scanspeak drivers in a 2.5 way reflex loaded system. The two bass / midrange drivers were 18W8545's with a 9300 tweeter (I think). A lot of the success was undoubtedly due to the curved composite panels in the cabinets which reduced colouration to negligable levels. Attention to detail with crossover component maching and general assembly also contributed to their success.
I was fortunate enough to hear the speakers in WB's dem room, and they were stunning, both in terms of detail and imaging.
The impulse H2's were a totally different animal. They used Seas and Focal drivers, and although the specific units used are no longer in production, there are very similar replacements available. They were horn loaded, but I suppose that they could be more accurately described as horn assisted. The horn was very simple in concept and was little more than a diagonal panel that went from the front bottom edge of the cabinet up towards the top back edge. The horn probably accounted for less than half the volume of the cabinet, with the rest effectively being the chamber behind the bass driver. The bottom of the cabinet was open and this was the horn mouth. The speakers therefore had to stand on short legs so the horn could breath. It basically broke just about every rule of horn design but supposedly worked extremely well.
There is very little information available on these speakers, but some can be found here.
www.acoustica.org.uk/impulse/impulse.html
I have not heard the Impulses but they got some excellent reviews. If anyone has any info on either of these speakers I would be very interested, and would be quite keen to have a go at producing a pair of clones.
Cheers,
Steve.
Both are British designs and are no longer in production, but both used conventional drivers and were very well received.
The Wilson Benesch speakers used standard Scanspeak drivers in a 2.5 way reflex loaded system. The two bass / midrange drivers were 18W8545's with a 9300 tweeter (I think). A lot of the success was undoubtedly due to the curved composite panels in the cabinets which reduced colouration to negligable levels. Attention to detail with crossover component maching and general assembly also contributed to their success.
I was fortunate enough to hear the speakers in WB's dem room, and they were stunning, both in terms of detail and imaging.
The impulse H2's were a totally different animal. They used Seas and Focal drivers, and although the specific units used are no longer in production, there are very similar replacements available. They were horn loaded, but I suppose that they could be more accurately described as horn assisted. The horn was very simple in concept and was little more than a diagonal panel that went from the front bottom edge of the cabinet up towards the top back edge. The horn probably accounted for less than half the volume of the cabinet, with the rest effectively being the chamber behind the bass driver. The bottom of the cabinet was open and this was the horn mouth. The speakers therefore had to stand on short legs so the horn could breath. It basically broke just about every rule of horn design but supposedly worked extremely well.
There is very little information available on these speakers, but some can be found here.
www.acoustica.org.uk/impulse/impulse.html
I have not heard the Impulses but they got some excellent reviews. If anyone has any info on either of these speakers I would be very interested, and would be quite keen to have a go at producing a pair of clones.
Cheers,
Steve.
How about Usher, now that Parts Express has started selling Usher drivers they would be a good choice. It helps that Usher even gives the exact driver model numbers used right on their website.
I'd love a CP-6371 clone. My one listen to them was impressive.
I'd love a CP-6371 clone. My one listen to them was impressive.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If you look around the internet long enough, you'll find an Audio Express article about the Usher CP8871 that includes a crossover schematic and a lot of verbage about the crossover. Values aren't given, but considering that the topology is done for you, I'm sure it wouldn't be impossible to figure it out with a few comparative measurements.
There's also an article written by Joe D'Appolito on the 737 design (I think I pulled this right off the Usher website) and if you check out page 2 you'll find a crossover schematic, and directly above it, all component values are listed.
Zalytron also had a D'Appolito designed 2.5 way that was similar to the crossover used in the 737, but seemed to be a bit more simplistic. That filter used to be on their website, but now that they don't sell Usher, I'm not sure if it's still out there.
There's also an article written by Joe D'Appolito on the 737 design (I think I pulled this right off the Usher website) and if you check out page 2 you'll find a crossover schematic, and directly above it, all component values are listed.
Zalytron also had a D'Appolito designed 2.5 way that was similar to the crossover used in the 737, but seemed to be a bit more simplistic. That filter used to be on their website, but now that they don't sell Usher, I'm not sure if it's still out there.
What would we do without Google 🙂
Just did a quick search and found schematics and detailed cabinet drawings for the Usher Dancer CP8871. Also found that D'Appolito was used for crossover design on many Usher commercial speakers.
Just did a quick search and found schematics and detailed cabinet drawings for the Usher Dancer CP8871. Also found that D'Appolito was used for crossover design on many Usher commercial speakers.
TurboFC3S, where did you find those schematics and cabinet drawings for CP8871?
And what search string did you use?
And what search string did you use?
horus said:
Here:
http://www.audioxpress.com/reviews/index.htm
Then scroll down to the "Usher CP 8871" review.
The Usher CP-6371 looks remarkably like the old Wilson Benesch designs, with the specs being scarily similar as well. I agree that these would be ideal to clone and there are also a number of cabinet options that can be used depending on the builders skill and pocket.
Wilson Benesch's latest incarnation of the ACT speaker utilises a welded steel skeleton wrapped with a carbon fibre shell. Details are at -
www.wilson-benesch.com/whitepapers/actwhite.html
There is an interesting article on the building of the M1 speakers here, which use the same mid / woofer and tweeter as the WB design. This gives plenty of detail of the build, complete with crossover values and schematics. It would be quite easy to incorporate an additional woofer in the same configuration as the WB or Usher designs.
www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1021/
Photo of the WB ACT speaker below.
Cheers,
Steve.
Wilson Benesch's latest incarnation of the ACT speaker utilises a welded steel skeleton wrapped with a carbon fibre shell. Details are at -
www.wilson-benesch.com/whitepapers/actwhite.html
There is an interesting article on the building of the M1 speakers here, which use the same mid / woofer and tweeter as the WB design. This gives plenty of detail of the build, complete with crossover values and schematics. It would be quite easy to incorporate an additional woofer in the same configuration as the WB or Usher designs.
www.speakerbuilding.com/content/1021/
Photo of the WB ACT speaker below.
Cheers,
Steve.
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