Hi,
After a week of deliberating, research and frustraton, i've given up trying to design something. It seems like a futile excercise when i am without measuring equipment/software.
This pair of speakers are for a friend on a very tight budget (about AUD$400 for everything) so the Proac 2.5 clones, though very musical, are out.
What i'm looking for is a design that is to be placed in a 3.2x 2.9m (10.5"x9.5")room, preferably floorstanders. Musical preferences ranges from pop, some rock to acoustical works like jazz. Friend is looking for midrange magic but if possible, some midbass punch as he doesn't want to add a subwoofer to the system.
The amplifier will be an old NAD 3020E but consider it an interim amp. If the speakers need more power he'll consider upgrading.
Any reccomendations guys?
After a week of deliberating, research and frustraton, i've given up trying to design something. It seems like a futile excercise when i am without measuring equipment/software.
This pair of speakers are for a friend on a very tight budget (about AUD$400 for everything) so the Proac 2.5 clones, though very musical, are out.
What i'm looking for is a design that is to be placed in a 3.2x 2.9m (10.5"x9.5")room, preferably floorstanders. Musical preferences ranges from pop, some rock to acoustical works like jazz. Friend is looking for midrange magic but if possible, some midbass punch as he doesn't want to add a subwoofer to the system.
The amplifier will be an old NAD 3020E but consider it an interim amp. If the speakers need more power he'll consider upgrading.
Any reccomendations guys?
.
Very wise choice.
Somewhat cheaper than the Pro-Ac clone :
http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/Tempo.html
🙂 sreten
Very wise choice.
Somewhat cheaper than the Pro-Ac clone :
http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/Tempo.html
🙂 sreten
what about peerless pipes, they come in at a good price, also look at the seas embla kit, the tempo is probably a bit hard to get the vifa PL drivers for here in Aust. Im building some 2.5way towers with peerless CSX woofers and a seas tweeter, drivers have cost me just over 400 so if he wanted to get some more output and efficiency then he could spend more and copy my design. XO is a series 2.5way.
Hi guys,
I eventually decided on the Vifa 2way by John Kreskov in www.audiodiycentral.com. It's measured specs were very attractive too. I did consider the peerless pipe but thought it might be too overwhelming in such a small, almost square room (2.9mx3.2m)
Friend and I figured the bookshelfs would suit the room size and we can always diy a subwoofer later on.
Michael,
Where can i get the PL18 woofer? Both WES and City South Electronics don't have it.
Would you guys suggest deviating from the sealed 10L enclosure for the P17? I've heard this woofer has quite a good bass response.
I eventually decided on the Vifa 2way by John Kreskov in www.audiodiycentral.com. It's measured specs were very attractive too. I did consider the peerless pipe but thought it might be too overwhelming in such a small, almost square room (2.9mx3.2m)
Friend and I figured the bookshelfs would suit the room size and we can always diy a subwoofer later on.
Michael,
Where can i get the PL18 woofer? Both WES and City South Electronics don't have it.
Would you guys suggest deviating from the sealed 10L enclosure for the P17? I've heard this woofer has quite a good bass response.
I dont think you would find the peerless pipes over whelming, as they havee a smooth roll off due to TL, with room gain you could describe the bass as punchy.
As for the PL drivers im not sure where to get them here as WES is the australian importer of the DST drivers. You could order them from parts express in the US, with our current eschange rate it would not be too bad a cost, though shipping would take some time. City south electronics just buy their stuff from wes. If you want the best retail prices for DST drivers go to www.advanceae.com.au the guy james there is a good bloke and will look after you.
Personally i would do that box bigger and make it ported, but thats just me, it is a design done for sealed, stick with it otherwise you are designing a new speaker. The sealed will have reasonable bass due to your small room. But for any impact you wil need a subwoofer. But i still would go the peerless pipes as they are actually cheaper and many have built them and been very happy.
As for the PL drivers im not sure where to get them here as WES is the australian importer of the DST drivers. You could order them from parts express in the US, with our current eschange rate it would not be too bad a cost, though shipping would take some time. City south electronics just buy their stuff from wes. If you want the best retail prices for DST drivers go to www.advanceae.com.au the guy james there is a good bloke and will look after you.
Personally i would do that box bigger and make it ported, but thats just me, it is a design done for sealed, stick with it otherwise you are designing a new speaker. The sealed will have reasonable bass due to your small room. But for any impact you wil need a subwoofer. But i still would go the peerless pipes as they are actually cheaper and many have built them and been very happy.
The design can easily be converted to a floorstander.
Just keep the baffle width and driver mounting arrangements
at the top identical identical to the original design.
Note the design is intended for freespace mounting, not near
a wall and should be used on good stands, a floorstander
will take up no more space. Adding some bracing to the floor
standing cabinet is a very good idea.
P17 is a good driver for overdamped reflex alignments in small rooms.
🙂 sreten.
Just keep the baffle width and driver mounting arrangements
at the top identical identical to the original design.
Note the design is intended for freespace mounting, not near
a wall and should be used on good stands, a floorstander
will take up no more space. Adding some bracing to the floor
standing cabinet is a very good idea.
P17 is a good driver for overdamped reflex alignments in small rooms.
🙂 sreten.
Attachments
a 25 litre floorstander will give you around +7dB at 30Hz
and a max SPL of +12dB at 30Hz compared to sealed.
(For small drivers every SPL of bass capability counts)
Tuning should be 30hz to 33Hz.
A port 55mm diameter and the same length will give you
~ 33Hz, or same diameter reduce length to 180cm.
🙂 sreten.
and a max SPL of +12dB at 30Hz compared to sealed.
(For small drivers every SPL of bass capability counts)
Tuning should be 30hz to 33Hz.
A port 55mm diameter and the same length will give you
~ 33Hz, or same diameter reduce length to 180cm.
🙂 sreten.
Attachments
fishball79,
Your question reagrding the P717 has only been partially answered in that it may be used in both a sealed and a
ported box. The other part of the answer is regarding
the question, "how does it sound". The answer is,
and this is from actually designing a two way speaker
using them, not very nice. The bass quality is very plasticy,
very tuperware (tm). The midrange is not very pleasing due to
the high damping rubber surround.
The Jaycar 4 ohm carbon fibre woofer may be a goer for you.
I know it's not a "branded" driver but it has good spec's, that
is good bass in a 14litre ported box, good tight bass at that.
Good power handling, good xmax, and it's 4 ohm impedence will sit well with your NAD (and any other decent amp).
I have used this successfully in a 14 litre box with only a
.56mh inductor in series and a zobel consisting of a 5.6ohm
resistor and a 15uf capacitor in parallel with the woofer.
It actually had a nice midrange and could be crossev over at
around 4000hz to the tweeter. Avoid the Jaycar tweeters except
for the Vifa d26 which they have gotten in as run-out stock which
actually sounds nice!
Jaycar are in Aspley, Wooloongabba and the Gold Coast, and no, I'm not affiliated with them in any way shape or form.
MADINOZ
Your question reagrding the P717 has only been partially answered in that it may be used in both a sealed and a
ported box. The other part of the answer is regarding
the question, "how does it sound". The answer is,
and this is from actually designing a two way speaker
using them, not very nice. The bass quality is very plasticy,
very tuperware (tm). The midrange is not very pleasing due to
the high damping rubber surround.
The Jaycar 4 ohm carbon fibre woofer may be a goer for you.
I know it's not a "branded" driver but it has good spec's, that
is good bass in a 14litre ported box, good tight bass at that.
Good power handling, good xmax, and it's 4 ohm impedence will sit well with your NAD (and any other decent amp).
I have used this successfully in a 14 litre box with only a
.56mh inductor in series and a zobel consisting of a 5.6ohm
resistor and a 15uf capacitor in parallel with the woofer.
It actually had a nice midrange and could be crossev over at
around 4000hz to the tweeter. Avoid the Jaycar tweeters except
for the Vifa d26 which they have gotten in as run-out stock which
actually sounds nice!
Jaycar are in Aspley, Wooloongabba and the Gold Coast, and no, I'm not affiliated with them in any way shape or form.
MADINOZ
Hi madinoz,
Thanks for ur advice in the earlier thread. Looks like i should've waited abit longer before committing but I was hoping to build them ASAP. I think i know what you mean by tupperware bass, having owned several budget speakers with polyprop cones in the past.
I've already ordered parts for the P17/D25AG project. Will keep that jaycar woofer in mind. Never expected them to have decent stuff though, honestly. The price looks good too!
Incidentally, I have a pair of D26 on their way here. Was planning to use that with my own speaker project with the 15W/8530K00s...
Thanks for ur advice in the earlier thread. Looks like i should've waited abit longer before committing but I was hoping to build them ASAP. I think i know what you mean by tupperware bass, having owned several budget speakers with polyprop cones in the past.
I've already ordered parts for the P17/D25AG project. Will keep that jaycar woofer in mind. Never expected them to have decent stuff though, honestly. The price looks good too!
Incidentally, I have a pair of D26 on their way here. Was planning to use that with my own speaker project with the 15W/8530K00s...
Chris,
Put them in a nice box and someone will buy them.
I guess I was being a bit ruthless in my appraisal of
them as someone bought the pair I made and loves
them (raves about them every time I meet up with
them). So it's horses for courses.
I just didn't like them but mayby only because I had opportunity
to listen to them thru some really high end gear and
then listen to a pair of speakers using peerless woofers
thru the same equipment. Ignorance is bliss, sometimes!
madinoz
Put them in a nice box and someone will buy them.
I guess I was being a bit ruthless in my appraisal of
them as someone bought the pair I made and loves
them (raves about them every time I meet up with
them). So it's horses for courses.
I just didn't like them but mayby only because I had opportunity
to listen to them thru some really high end gear and
then listen to a pair of speakers using peerless woofers
thru the same equipment. Ignorance is bliss, sometimes!
madinoz
Madinoz,
Ooooh that's feels like a stab in the heart, you heard peerless and found the Vifa lacking! This is so ironic considering i was staring at Peerless for so long and ending up with Vifa.
That's exactly what i hope to do, that someone buys the vifa so i can start anew... and will give me a good chance to compare peerless and vifa.
Speaking of finish, any quick n easy way to finish mdf or veneers is really the way to go. How can i do the sort of finish like Dynaudio speakers where the veneer has alot of depth yet the finish is smooth, ie u cant feel grain?
Ooooh that's feels like a stab in the heart, you heard peerless and found the Vifa lacking! This is so ironic considering i was staring at Peerless for so long and ending up with Vifa.
That's exactly what i hope to do, that someone buys the vifa so i can start anew... and will give me a good chance to compare peerless and vifa.
Speaking of finish, any quick n easy way to finish mdf or veneers is really the way to go. How can i do the sort of finish like Dynaudio speakers where the veneer has alot of depth yet the finish is smooth, ie u cant feel grain?
Hindsight is, as they say, 20/20.
I've bought a lot of drivers only to think to myself,
why the heck didn't I buy x/y/z?
It can be a bit deflating especially on a tight budget.
But selling as for selling your speakers,
to answer the veneer question indirectly,
I know that veneer looks good and has a very
high visual appeal, hell, they even have high
WAF which sometimes can be the ultimate test for
speakers (forget Stereophile magazines unsmoothed
in room pink noise response) but, have you
considered a painted 2 pack finish? You can get practically
any colour you like (including black) and the finish is smooth
and can be done in high gloss which looks very Velodyne sub,
NHT etc.....
MADINOZ
I've bought a lot of drivers only to think to myself,
why the heck didn't I buy x/y/z?
It can be a bit deflating especially on a tight budget.
But selling as for selling your speakers,
to answer the veneer question indirectly,
I know that veneer looks good and has a very
high visual appeal, hell, they even have high
WAF which sometimes can be the ultimate test for
speakers (forget Stereophile magazines unsmoothed
in room pink noise response) but, have you
considered a painted 2 pack finish? You can get practically
any colour you like (including black) and the finish is smooth
and can be done in high gloss which looks very Velodyne sub,
NHT etc.....
MADINOZ
Madinoz,
hip pocket nerve? butt! hehe
Yeah i know there are many ways to screw up this project somehow and was hoping i could avoid them...
Yes I don't mind and in fact like this type of finishing. Would they look like autocar finish? Does it go about like one spray to sealed the surface so the MDF won't absorb paint before its dry and the actual paint itself?
hip pocket nerve? butt! hehe
Yeah i know there are many ways to screw up this project somehow and was hoping i could avoid them...
Yes I don't mind and in fact like this type of finishing. Would they look like autocar finish? Does it go about like one spray to sealed the surface so the MDF won't absorb paint before its dry and the actual paint itself?
Use a primer/filler on the mdf to seal it (same thing that you would use to finish off a bogged up hole in car bodywork)
You can get the same finish as on a new car (with similar amount of work and coats required of course)
You can get the same finish as on a new car (with similar amount of work and coats required of course)
Note that you'll need several coats of clear
laquer on top to protect a high gloss finish.
🙂 sreten.
laquer on top to protect a high gloss finish.
🙂 sreten.
Chris
Auto paints these days are 2pac (similar formulation to 2pacs
used on kitchen doors etc) but with metallic chips added.
There is usually a sealant and 2 coats of "colour" each sanded
in-between applications. Then a coat of gloss on top (as raised by previous post).
I have actually used an auto-paint finish myself BUT (BIG BUT!!!!!)
I got it put on by a professional painter.
If you go to an auto-repairer they'll try to charge you the earth (unless you're lucky enough to know one), try kitchen paint specialists to see if they can do it. Auto paint is quite expensive as a rule so be prepared for a sting (in the hip pocket).
OUCH..........
MADINOZ
see attachment, MTM Vifa PL18 with Vifa xt25
Auto paints these days are 2pac (similar formulation to 2pacs
used on kitchen doors etc) but with metallic chips added.
There is usually a sealant and 2 coats of "colour" each sanded
in-between applications. Then a coat of gloss on top (as raised by previous post).
I have actually used an auto-paint finish myself BUT (BIG BUT!!!!!)
I got it put on by a professional painter.
If you go to an auto-repairer they'll try to charge you the earth (unless you're lucky enough to know one), try kitchen paint specialists to see if they can do it. Auto paint is quite expensive as a rule so be prepared for a sting (in the hip pocket).
OUCH..........
MADINOZ
see attachment, MTM Vifa PL18 with Vifa xt25
Attachments
Thanks for the finishing info guys, this is probably harder to screw up than veneers.
Roughly how many layers of each primer do you guys reccomend? I dont need to sand down the boxes between each layer of paint do i?
Roughly how many layers of each primer do you guys reccomend? I dont need to sand down the boxes between each layer of paint do i?
I was under the impression that you can't sand metallic paint
layers, only the clear laquer layers that go on top.
Regarding sanding between layers :
If the finish on the primed cabinets is poor you might as well give up,
you can't fix in the spraying stage.
For piano gloss finish you do need to flatten cut / each layer.
Using "leveller" also helps.
(basically redissolving the paint by spraying with solvent only)
🙂 sreten.
layers, only the clear laquer layers that go on top.
Regarding sanding between layers :
If the finish on the primed cabinets is poor you might as well give up,
you can't fix in the spraying stage.
For piano gloss finish you do need to flatten cut / each layer.
Using "leveller" also helps.
(basically redissolving the paint by spraying with solvent only)
🙂 sreten.
Actually with regards to sanding/ gloss finishes, the details in my previous post could have been a bit wrong or incomplete as I haven't done any painting myself and I was using my sometimes poor memory of a discussion with a painter from last year......
I think Sreten's discourse, whilst very accurate, highlights the potential danger of stuffing-up a metallic finish in the DIY arena.
Having two left hands myself I leave such things to tradespersons.
Just my two bob worth.
MADINOZ
I think Sreten's discourse, whilst very accurate, highlights the potential danger of stuffing-up a metallic finish in the DIY arena.
Having two left hands myself I leave such things to tradespersons.
Just my two bob worth.
MADINOZ
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