Has anyone seen these mono blocks. The D200 sells for $2300 a pair and what is inside --- a UCD400 module, a 400-500VA transformer, some electrolytics, brisge rectifier, RCA socket, Binding posts, a cheap chassis and an IEC power connector.
These guys are nuts. Who would pay $1,150.00 for a UCD400 module hung on a power supply. Do the math.
UCD400 $60.00 and this is a high OEM price
Transformer $40.00
Electrolytics $10.00..... OK well maybe $15.00 if they buy retail
Bridge rectifier $2.00
Tiffany style RCA $0.60 I pay $0.49 for mine.
Binding posts $5.00 if you are dumb and pay this but OK
IEC socket $1.50
Chassis $25.00 and that is expensive for what I see.
Some FR4 PCB card for the PSU $5.00
Hardware, some wire etc $5.00
Labour to assemble these parts $50.00 and that is if you are slow!!!!
Packaging $10.00 and that is generous.
Now add it up $204.10 and this sells to the dealer (if they have any?) for $575.00
Not bad for a UCD400 module ciaudio.com
These guys are nuts. Who would pay $1,150.00 for a UCD400 module hung on a power supply. Do the math.
UCD400 $60.00 and this is a high OEM price
Transformer $40.00
Electrolytics $10.00..... OK well maybe $15.00 if they buy retail
Bridge rectifier $2.00
Tiffany style RCA $0.60 I pay $0.49 for mine.
Binding posts $5.00 if you are dumb and pay this but OK
IEC socket $1.50
Chassis $25.00 and that is expensive for what I see.
Some FR4 PCB card for the PSU $5.00
Hardware, some wire etc $5.00
Labour to assemble these parts $50.00 and that is if you are slow!!!!
Packaging $10.00 and that is generous.
Now add it up $204.10 and this sells to the dealer (if they have any?) for $575.00
Not bad for a UCD400 module ciaudio.com
I've seen the site and the good reviews. It supposed to be a low cost amp. Hmmmm...
Seems like a lot of money for a few parts that you can get in a kit from DIY cable. for a lot less money. The only expensive parts would be the chassis.
But you know, whatever the market will allow. We are here because we can build. Most people can't.
So look on the bright side. Think of all the money you'll save by building one yourself. 🙂
Seems like a lot of money for a few parts that you can get in a kit from DIY cable. for a lot less money. The only expensive parts would be the chassis.
But you know, whatever the market will allow. We are here because we can build. Most people can't.
So look on the bright side. Think of all the money you'll save by building one yourself. 🙂
Costing.. profits....can be like a huge balloon ..full of hot air !
Product costing is an elusive subject and there is no hard and fast model that one can use to ensure profits of a certain amount.
I once attended a course on product costing run by Swiss Professionals from big Swiss companies. The multiplying factor on manufacturing cost to selling price was a variable from roughly about less than 2 to 1000 !!! An that doesn't cover all possibilities.
It depended on the product and the buyer. Some Japanese companies used ( in the 80's ) a ratio of close to 1:10 for mass market products and sometimes still lost money on some products ! They couldn't sell all and couldn't sell them fast enough.
You see some people mentioning 1:6 on this forum. That is just a ball park figure. It varies a lot for different products and locations.
Some guys who sell with a 1:10 ratio could even end up LOOSING if you check accounts over a sensible period of time - like say 2 years or more.
Determining a price is not for the faint hearted ....... unseen expenses ( usually quite large ) will creep up so fast after some time that whatever you thought was profit will evaporate in a jiffy . Khalas !! This is when you need several drinks and maybe your wife deserts you!
That's when we start respecting anyone who can keep a business floating over time ! It isn't easy.
So if a product seems very expensive over the cost price and the seller seems to be making tons of profit , maybe it's time to do it on ones own - after all you could be making all that profit - hopefully without copying the design!
I know , because I ran a business once and saw huge profits disappear into thin air 18 months after it started . I couldn't have planned the unseen expenses that cropped up later on. They just happened due to circumstance. It wasn't even an elusive / flimsy consumer product !
So by working out the costs backward it seems to be hugely pofitable. Thank the manufacture for using parts that are known well . So now one can do the same (?)
Maybe it is more constructive to start ones own business .
Best wishes for the new business. We are all waiting for that killer idea .
Cheers.
Product costing is an elusive subject and there is no hard and fast model that one can use to ensure profits of a certain amount.
I once attended a course on product costing run by Swiss Professionals from big Swiss companies. The multiplying factor on manufacturing cost to selling price was a variable from roughly about less than 2 to 1000 !!! An that doesn't cover all possibilities.
It depended on the product and the buyer. Some Japanese companies used ( in the 80's ) a ratio of close to 1:10 for mass market products and sometimes still lost money on some products ! They couldn't sell all and couldn't sell them fast enough.
You see some people mentioning 1:6 on this forum. That is just a ball park figure. It varies a lot for different products and locations.
Some guys who sell with a 1:10 ratio could even end up LOOSING if you check accounts over a sensible period of time - like say 2 years or more.
Determining a price is not for the faint hearted ....... unseen expenses ( usually quite large ) will creep up so fast after some time that whatever you thought was profit will evaporate in a jiffy . Khalas !! This is when you need several drinks and maybe your wife deserts you!
That's when we start respecting anyone who can keep a business floating over time ! It isn't easy.
So if a product seems very expensive over the cost price and the seller seems to be making tons of profit , maybe it's time to do it on ones own - after all you could be making all that profit - hopefully without copying the design!
I know , because I ran a business once and saw huge profits disappear into thin air 18 months after it started . I couldn't have planned the unseen expenses that cropped up later on. They just happened due to circumstance. It wasn't even an elusive / flimsy consumer product !
So by working out the costs backward it seems to be hugely pofitable. Thank the manufacture for using parts that are known well . So now one can do the same (?)
Maybe it is more constructive to start ones own business .
Best wishes for the new business. We are all waiting for that killer idea .
Cheers.
MOER said:
Sorry, I don’t agree with you! This is an too easy calculating. They are tweaking our UcD module on a lot of points to get sound what they like to have. So you have to compare this at least with an UcD400AD + HG Supply and our 500VA transformer. This is in total $ 450.00, in production volume this will cost a manufacture +/- $300.00. You need a very nice case, screening, binding post and labour cost to complete this. For a nice custom made case included screening this can cost you very easy $ 100.00, and with labour cost (tweaking module and assembly) again a $100.00.
So the manufacturing cost will be without any problems $500.00. A normal rule of thump is that if you make something by yourself this will be the half of the retail price.
Personally I do find them quite cheap, compared against “other brands of Class-D” products. They other manufactures only use of the shelf ready made products, ad put them in a very nice looking case. No tweaks, not spending hundreds of hours of testing different components what sound the best. Besides this the Ciaudio outperformance on specs the most Class-D products what are in the market!!
Take a look how many customers of other Class-D products do complain about RFI problems, Ciaudio has none…… 😉
….my opinion.
Cheers,
Jan-Peter
Looks like they have a separate supply for the input op-amp, probably have the CRD mod too, there also seems to be BG N coupling caps, maybe a few other little bits and bobs
I agree with what has already been mentioned, not everybody can do diy, these D200's may seem expensive because of the parts etc used but the main thing is, can they compete with other commercial products around the same price? judging by the sounds I'm currently getting with my diy UCD180 amp I'd say yes🙂
I agree with what has already been mentioned, not everybody can do diy, these D200's may seem expensive because of the parts etc used but the main thing is, can they compete with other commercial products around the same price? judging by the sounds I'm currently getting with my diy UCD180 amp I'd say yes🙂
Having built quite a number of amplifiers, including a few using Hypex' UcD modules I can wholeheartedly agree with Jan-Peter. I'd even be so bold as to state that the price CI Audio sells these amplifiers at is quite affordable. It is hard to beat that price, with similar attention to detail and workmanship, when you DIY with Hypex modules. Keep in mind that you'll probably be able to get a discount at your dealer and not many are sold at their suggested retail price. If you're not comfortable DIY-ing then I think these come highly recommended.
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
Best regards,
Sander Sassen
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com
t. said:
According to CIaudio they've been there since the advent of the UCD180. They've worked very hard and in close relation with the inventor in order to improve the technology....hmm.
First mention of that mod came from me on this forum in the reference design thread. I could show you the post where I mentioned it at least two months before Bruno let slip that provisions for constant current biasing would be implemented on a new revision of the modules.
Jan-Peter followed that with saying to Bruno on the forum that it was for a very interesting OEM customer "***".
CIA didn't want us to have the mod that they discovered, thanks to us..."crafty indeed", Hypex complied.
When news of those mounting pads for that mod being implemented on all modules became public domain on this forum, almost two years later, Hypex now decides they can include the parts on the DIY modules.
CIA's claim to fame was that you can't just go to Hypex and get an amp that would sound the same, because of all that hard work they did to make it so unique, a 2 cent part and a stolen idea.
CIA should have been "alot" more careful in wording their marketing and covering their trail.
CIA amps are of poor construction, yeah they have an auxiliary PSU for the input stage, with an unshielded and untwisted wire run several inches long to foolishly placed upside down modules.
CIA should continue to read this forum and learn how to implement the technology correctly.
CIA may email me through the forum and I'll give them a few tips how to build it right.
Continued success to CIA audio in profitting off our ideas.
Felt I'd get that off my chest since the subject came up again and again, and I'm on my way offline, can't even afford to finish my amp, or populate it with that 2 cent part.
Hopefully in the future the DIY community will at least get to benefit from their work and ideas they chose to share.
Regards,
Chris
PS: Their amps are built cheap to be competitive, but not with the very best. You can easily build something that will far outperform it if you put a little effort and research into it. They're priced accordingly and are worth the money for what they are.
Interesting post Chris
It would be nice to be able to actually compare one of these CIaudio amps against one of our diy UCD's, we would know for certain then just how special they are😉
I honestly feel bad for those who do not have the pads for the CRD's, I didn't know some didn't have them to be honest but in my honest opinion this was one of the best mods I've yet tried on the UCD's and I would like to thank you for bringing it up , even the missus noticed and commented on the difference and thats the truth
People may say I'm talking crap but I felt without this mod the AD8620 was not to my liking in this amp, I was even going to remove it this weekend but thats only my opinion and I don't post things that may cause any arguments but this is how I feel.
I'm sure others are more than happy without the CRD and some may claim they can't hear a difference
If you are going offline Chris and I hope you don't you will be missed🙁
It would be nice to be able to actually compare one of these CIaudio amps against one of our diy UCD's, we would know for certain then just how special they are😉
I honestly feel bad for those who do not have the pads for the CRD's, I didn't know some didn't have them to be honest but in my honest opinion this was one of the best mods I've yet tried on the UCD's and I would like to thank you for bringing it up , even the missus noticed and commented on the difference and thats the truth
People may say I'm talking crap but I felt without this mod the AD8620 was not to my liking in this amp, I was even going to remove it this weekend but thats only my opinion and I don't post things that may cause any arguments but this is how I feel.
I'm sure others are more than happy without the CRD and some may claim they can't hear a difference
If you are going offline Chris and I hope you don't you will be missed🙁
classd4sure said:
I can't believe someone has the audacity to write such 'shi*'
Since you are in the position to make such a 'well informed' and credible post, I assume you have had the d200's in your system and have had a look under the hood etc etc.
Claiming that a '2 cent part and a stolen idea' is the only thing that differeniates the CIAucd400 from a standard ucd400 is a bold thing to do. How do you know that for sure? Where are you facts?
As for build quality.....I don't own either the d100's or d200's (I have a couple of ucd400 monoblocs and a couple of zap2.3se monoblocs) but I do have a few of Dusty's other products....poor construction is something you definately can't accuse CIA of, I think their products are very well made indeed.
As for Dusty emailing you to get advice on 'how to build a ucd amp properly'.....I am sure he is still laughing if he has had the misfortune of reading your post.
Seriously man.....are you for real???
All I know that is whether you are right or wrong in what you claim (and I seriously doubt you are right), I wouldn't be making such statements unless I had the facts to back it up. And even if I did , why would I bother, what possible benefit would there be for me trying to bag out CIAudio. Are you jealous or something? I don't understand.....
Come on guys lets not turn this thread into a row
Surely there is a couple of people who live close with one owning the CIaudio and the other a diy UCD, a side by side comparison would be interesting, just make sure the diy one has the CRD mod if it uses the AD8620🙂
Surely there is a couple of people who live close with one owning the CIaudio and the other a diy UCD, a side by side comparison would be interesting, just make sure the diy one has the CRD mod if it uses the AD8620🙂
This is what I really hate about this place
A bunch of self-righteous DIY know-it-alls trashing a guy trying to make an honest $. Selling to a market that has no intention of doing anything more complicated than hooking up the cables.
IOW.......not the DIY market.
So what the 'eff is your problem, bubba?
I notice how many of these experts have the chutzpah to try their hand at manufacturing.
Yeah, go ahead......add up all the costs. Add in floor space, advertising, taxes, gubbamint crapola, and let us see you do better for less.
Let us see you do anything other than pontificate.
Make sure you use the cheapest, ugliest, nasty looking chassis you can find. It may cost more than you think. Then we can all laugh our butts off at you.
Jocko
A bunch of self-righteous DIY know-it-alls trashing a guy trying to make an honest $. Selling to a market that has no intention of doing anything more complicated than hooking up the cables.
IOW.......not the DIY market.
So what the 'eff is your problem, bubba?
I notice how many of these experts have the chutzpah to try their hand at manufacturing.
Yeah, go ahead......add up all the costs. Add in floor space, advertising, taxes, gubbamint crapola, and let us see you do better for less.
Let us see you do anything other than pontificate.
Make sure you use the cheapest, ugliest, nasty looking chassis you can find. It may cost more than you think. Then we can all laugh our butts off at you.
Jocko
Guys - chill.
/
I'm with Jocko, they are priced far too cheaply to me. They really can't be making a living wage out of selling those.
A "living wage"..........?
Gee, Al, I did not know this had become the PC Labour Exchange forum. [joke]
Seriously, guys.......
Can you build one cheaper for yourself? Sure!
Make some cheaply in a bog standard box to sell to your university buddies? Yep.
Sell them on the market, and make enough money just to stay in business, let alone make $$$? Not so easy.
For the big boys, they usually operate on 10:1 end price to parts ratio. Small outfits make scrape by on 5:1. Launchng a new company/product.......>3:1 or you are sunk. And you won't survive at 3:1 for long. Long enough to get a foothold. If you are lucky and good.
Try it sometime. You will be sorry.
Jocko
Gee, Al, I did not know this had become the PC Labour Exchange forum. [joke]
Seriously, guys.......
Can you build one cheaper for yourself? Sure!
Make some cheaply in a bog standard box to sell to your university buddies? Yep.
Sell them on the market, and make enough money just to stay in business, let alone make $$$? Not so easy.
For the big boys, they usually operate on 10:1 end price to parts ratio. Small outfits make scrape by on 5:1. Launchng a new company/product.......>3:1 or you are sunk. And you won't survive at 3:1 for long. Long enough to get a foothold. If you are lucky and good.
Try it sometime. You will be sorry.
Jocko
My UCD 400AD modules are dated 10/02/2005.
I looked carefully and dont see any empty pads for CRD's.
Does this apply to UCD 400's. If so could someone post a revision date & picture of these empty or populated pads?
Thanks
I looked carefully and dont see any empty pads for CRD's.
Does this apply to UCD 400's. If so could someone post a revision date & picture of these empty or populated pads?
Thanks
BTW - on my UCD 400AD modules I do see populated CRD's in close proximity to the AD8620 - T25, T26, T15
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