Hi
I am newbie, so asking if anyone have opinions or experience in this matter.
I have understood that small wavequide for tweeter and "normal" cone type midrange fit together nicely (many commercial & diy examples),but what about dome midrange?
I am building 3 way classic speaker, TMW confiquration size about same as yamaha ns 1000.
My brother owns restored ns1000 and i really like the voices and midrange, though a bit sharp for my taste why i am going for more smoother elements.
I plan to buy bliesma t25s-6 silk dome, and I already own SBA satori tw29txn-b textreme tweeter.
T25s-6 can be used in a custom wg (i can 3d print it), do not have graph here.
tw29txn-b can be used in a jantzen wavequide:
I noticed that all the last speakers that i liked, had sort of wavequides, tannoy dimension 8 (8 inch coaxial), zu druid mkiv (tweeter in WG) so i would want to try wg for the tweeter.
I admit that i can't completely explain why i am drawn so much to dome midrange, but it works very good on ns1000 so it might be just feeling..
I am very sensitive to sibilance and too hot HF, so i need besides making careful crossover work with listening, also elements that are naturally more on the side of warm/smooth than detailed/bright.
I will make makeshift test cab to see does wg work to my taste, and i can always use tweeter normally without wg, but that bliesma middome is expensive to even resell, so..
Anyone have experience does wg work with middome?
Best
Jarkko
I am newbie, so asking if anyone have opinions or experience in this matter.
I have understood that small wavequide for tweeter and "normal" cone type midrange fit together nicely (many commercial & diy examples),but what about dome midrange?
I am building 3 way classic speaker, TMW confiquration size about same as yamaha ns 1000.
My brother owns restored ns1000 and i really like the voices and midrange, though a bit sharp for my taste why i am going for more smoother elements.
I plan to buy bliesma t25s-6 silk dome, and I already own SBA satori tw29txn-b textreme tweeter.
T25s-6 can be used in a custom wg (i can 3d print it), do not have graph here.
tw29txn-b can be used in a jantzen wavequide:
I noticed that all the last speakers that i liked, had sort of wavequides, tannoy dimension 8 (8 inch coaxial), zu druid mkiv (tweeter in WG) so i would want to try wg for the tweeter.
I admit that i can't completely explain why i am drawn so much to dome midrange, but it works very good on ns1000 so it might be just feeling..
I am very sensitive to sibilance and too hot HF, so i need besides making careful crossover work with listening, also elements that are naturally more on the side of warm/smooth than detailed/bright.
I will make makeshift test cab to see does wg work to my taste, and i can always use tweeter normally without wg, but that bliesma middome is expensive to even resell, so..
Anyone have experience does wg work with middome?
Best
Jarkko
I would not assume the sound of something has anything to do with how it feels to the touch. When I've done direct comparisons within a model where only the diaphragm was different, I came to much different conclusions. I tested the Vifa NE19VTT (titanium), VTC (anodized Al), and VTS (fabric), and the VTT is the smoothest and best behaved, followed closely by the VTC. The VTS was just a bit to sizzly and splashy. Same story with the RS28A vs RS28F. RS28A is very calm and well behaved. RS28F is just a bit too lively, more special effect that faithful reproduction when compared directly with the RS28A. That particular comparison has been done by many diyers over the years and my impression is in line with what others have heard for the RS28.
Where do you plan to crossover? Is the dome directional there? Is there a waveguide available that would match that directivity?
EDIT: looking at that plot of the M74S, I'm not sure you would want a waveguide, it's still radiating widely at likely crossover frequencies.
Where do you plan to crossover? Is the dome directional there? Is there a waveguide available that would match that directivity?
EDIT: looking at that plot of the M74S, I'm not sure you would want a waveguide, it's still radiating widely at likely crossover frequencies.
The main purpose of a waveguide is to restricts the tweeters dispersion to say 120 degrees, such that it matches the dispersion of a cone midrange driver at the crossover frequency.
A dome midrange has 180 degrees dispersion at the crossover frequency. To make the tweeter match it, its waveguide should be 180 degrees. That means no waveguide at all on the tweeter.
A dome midrange has 180 degrees dispersion at the crossover frequency. To make the tweeter match it, its waveguide should be 180 degrees. That means no waveguide at all on the tweeter.
That would make sense, I've never seen a 3" dome have that sort of wide dispersion.
Sorry you are right, i got confused since both are saved on same folder, here is the correct one:
Thanks for answering. I though that wg is also used to have certain "effect" for perceived soundfield? I mean horn speakers sound different and small wg in tweeter could be tought of as a "subclass of horn speakers"?
Question, why do you think atc use wg in their middome?
Is it just to be different, or is it to have certain positive effects compared to normal dome?
Some atc middome measurement from Troels:
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ATC-SM75-150.htm
Also one of the benefits of using a dome mid and a dome tweeter is that they are physically time aligned and so there is no need for either a stepped baffle or a crossover that apples an electrical delay.
Thanks for answering. I think you are right, the speaker i owned and used to like did both have compression tweeter (zu druid, tannoy dimension 8) they were smooth so i guess implementation matters too. I also used to magnat all ribbon 12 that had ceramic tweeter and that was buttersmooth.
The reason why i picked up bliesma silk, is from hificompass review where he subjectively compares sound of different dome materials, silk was most forgiving so it picked my attention. I know there are no guarantees that i will think same way, but i am alright leaving that part to buying and testing (and selling it used if it fails..) if it othervice looks good enough from measurements.
My plan is to make crossover in vituixcad, i have double channel measurement microphone. 3-way speaker will have TMW orientation.
Speaker is already built, it is actually troels faital-3wc-10:
There is a wg ready for either tweeter: t25s (3dprinted) and for tw29txn-b (jantzen wg)
There are no wavequides for middome m74s.
Right now baffle is straight, not tilted.
"Where do you plan to crossover? Is the dome directional there?"
Sorry, i don't think i completely understand but:
-My idea is to ask here and find out could wg tweeter work with dome, or is it a bad idea.
Im starting to think that maybe using wg tweeter with dome is more complicated than i expected..
Maybe using dome and tweeter in same surface level like in ns1000 could actually be better since it should be more phase coherent?
Pkaudio website owner did tell me this:
https://pkaudio.webnode.cz/wg-meas/
"Also my advice would to put TXN to Jantzen WG, I have measurement on my website. "
I see this plan vcl-ex25 somewhat similiar to what you were trying to achieve, but with Be version. Fellow user from this forum put some great information about controlling the two breakouts we see around HF using notch filters .
That can work out very well. Take a look at the Open Source Monkey Coffin: https://github.com/mbrennwa/osmcdoc/raw/master/osmc_paper.pdf
The whole purpose of using a 2-3" dome in a hi-fi application, in my opinion, is to cross between an affordable 6-8" woofer and a 1" tweeter where neither have ideal performance, which is the frequency range from about 700Hz-2.5kHz. You will struggle to find a dome mid that plays cleanly below 700Hz at reasonable volumes, and you don't want to cross to the tweeter any higher than around 2.5kHz otherwise you get lobing in the off axis response due to the centre-to-centre spacing. Some 3" domes have such a huge faceplate that even 2.5kHz is probably too much. It is easy to find an affordable woofer that plays clean up to 700Hz and a affordable tweeter down to 2.5kHz. The absolute best 7" woofers and 1" dome tweeters can just barely meet in the middle around 1.5-2kHz to make a 2-way with no compromises but in most cases it is more economical to make a 3-way with a 2" dome hence their existence in a hi-fi application.
With that out of the way, the answer to the OPs question:
The problem with putting a small ~6.5" waveguide on a tweeter is that they are only effective from about 1.5-2kHz to around 6-8kHz. Therefore when the dome mid plays say 700Hz, the waveguide does nothing to the fundamental, but boosts all the harmonics. Therefore below 1.5-2kHz the harmonic distortion becomes much worse than if you didn't have the waveguide.
If you used a 13" waveguide it might be effective across the range you'd want to use a 2-3" dome mid, but then the centre-to-centre spacing with the tweeter is excessive so you have to lower the crossover frequency between mid and tweeter. The bandwidth you can use the dome without ill effects becomes so narrow, like 700Hz to 1.2kHz, that you question why even bother having it and not just building a 2-way.
With that out of the way, the answer to the OPs question:
The problem with putting a small ~6.5" waveguide on a tweeter is that they are only effective from about 1.5-2kHz to around 6-8kHz. Therefore when the dome mid plays say 700Hz, the waveguide does nothing to the fundamental, but boosts all the harmonics. Therefore below 1.5-2kHz the harmonic distortion becomes much worse than if you didn't have the waveguide.
If you used a 13" waveguide it might be effective across the range you'd want to use a 2-3" dome mid, but then the centre-to-centre spacing with the tweeter is excessive so you have to lower the crossover frequency between mid and tweeter. The bandwidth you can use the dome without ill effects becomes so narrow, like 700Hz to 1.2kHz, that you question why even bother having it and not just building a 2-way.
It is all about what is your center to center ratio definition. 1.2 x wavelength seems to work fine so it certainly gives more headroom.
Troels G. Just made a 3 ways with the new 2.5 Satori filler dome. I do not know if a 2.5" that has a 400 hz Fs can be used as low as 800 hz cut off and if the Sd is big enough that low to spread some powerfull air above a 6" or a 8" ? Seems odd to me but dunno... Not saying that it is not so far than the said 1k to 2k hz some want to cross far from it.
Troels G. Just made a 3 ways with the new 2.5 Satori filler dome. I do not know if a 2.5" that has a 400 hz Fs can be used as low as 800 hz cut off and if the Sd is big enough that low to spread some powerfull air above a 6" or a 8" ? Seems odd to me but dunno... Not saying that it is not so far than the said 1k to 2k hz some want to cross far from it.
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There are right now hifi exhibition in finland, and very luckily a pmc speaker that has been receiving good impression AND that has middle dome in waveguide. Exactly what i need to go and hear, i will make subjective faulty report just for fun here..
If it has seamless integration to upper and lower ranges, and will have certain capabilities i am wanting from a soundstage, i will give this project a green light. Order parts, waveguides and start to 3dmodel a copy of pmc-style waveguide.
If it has seamless integration to upper and lower ranges, and will have certain capabilities i am wanting from a soundstage, i will give this project a green light. Order parts, waveguides and start to 3dmodel a copy of pmc-style waveguide.
Bliesma dome range also has good values:
"The confirmed low cutoff frequency for all models is 600 Hz with at least 2nd order filtering. It is possible that 500 Hz will be quite normal if you reduce the requirements for maximum SPL. The upper cutoff frequency is around 4-4.5 kHz for the paper version, up to 5 kHz for the silk version, 6-7 kHz for the aluminum and 8 kHz for the beryllium ones."