OK, i m thinking of making a pair of speakers ( and possibly a 3rd one for center channel, i ll use them 60% for music 40% for home cinema) so I need your advice on drivers selection... i m thinking of either focal W cone drivers or scanspeak. I was also considering the seas excel drivers but i chickened out a bit, even I have some experience on crossover design and i also own measuring equipment. I searched back the forum on this, but i got lost in so many threads on driver's comparison.
Here are my questions:
1) Which one of the scanspeak midbass drivers is better? There are so many scanspeak midbass models but i cant tell wich one is best. I m really interested in warm and sweet mids, not just deep bass.
2) are Focal W cone midbass drivers ( 6W4311 for example ) better or worse than the Scanspeaks ? I own a set of Focal Utopia 165W in my car, and i like them a lot, bass is deep, punchy and accurate, mids are great, highs are very detailed and not harsh (i d like them to be more warm though). I havent heard any scanspeak, so i need your help on this, does the price difference among focals and scanspeaks justify the sound performance difference ( if there is one, i see some people really admire the scanspeaks while some others say they sound too much "paper cone" for their class)
3) Which tweeter among all scanspeak models is prefferable? I see many people like the 9500, is it the best value for money or the best performance?
4) If 9500 is the best tweeter choice among scanspeaks, which one is better or worse than the ss, Morel MDT33 , Seas Excel T25CF 001 (the one with the normal magnet). Is Focal TC120 's performance close to them, or its a lower class tweeter ?
Please help!! Thanks for any reply in advance. Focal discontinued giving driver components but i see there is some stock at online shops for the time being.
Here are my questions:
1) Which one of the scanspeak midbass drivers is better? There are so many scanspeak midbass models but i cant tell wich one is best. I m really interested in warm and sweet mids, not just deep bass.
2) are Focal W cone midbass drivers ( 6W4311 for example ) better or worse than the Scanspeaks ? I own a set of Focal Utopia 165W in my car, and i like them a lot, bass is deep, punchy and accurate, mids are great, highs are very detailed and not harsh (i d like them to be more warm though). I havent heard any scanspeak, so i need your help on this, does the price difference among focals and scanspeaks justify the sound performance difference ( if there is one, i see some people really admire the scanspeaks while some others say they sound too much "paper cone" for their class)
3) Which tweeter among all scanspeak models is prefferable? I see many people like the 9500, is it the best value for money or the best performance?
4) If 9500 is the best tweeter choice among scanspeaks, which one is better or worse than the ss, Morel MDT33 , Seas Excel T25CF 001 (the one with the normal magnet). Is Focal TC120 's performance close to them, or its a lower class tweeter ?
Please help!! Thanks for any reply in advance. Focal discontinued giving driver components but i see there is some stock at online shops for the time being.
Hi,
if you plan to use Scan Speak than try the 18 W 8546 (Kevlar cone) - it "sounds" much more dynamic than the paper/carbon versions. Recently I heard of a small German hi end manufacterer using the paper cone version (not the paper/carbon) version for 2-way-speakers. Before that that company used the famous Goerlich (Zellaton) as bass/mid-drivers and they "sound" very airy and dynamic, almost like an electrostatic.
For the tweeters keep in mind that the Focal 120 TDX is pretty hard to handle - it can "sound" very harsh. The Scan Speak or Morel tweeters are good in my oppinion. Have not heard the Excel without ferrofluid though.
if you plan to use Scan Speak than try the 18 W 8546 (Kevlar cone) - it "sounds" much more dynamic than the paper/carbon versions. Recently I heard of a small German hi end manufacterer using the paper cone version (not the paper/carbon) version for 2-way-speakers. Before that that company used the famous Goerlich (Zellaton) as bass/mid-drivers and they "sound" very airy and dynamic, almost like an electrostatic.
For the tweeters keep in mind that the Focal 120 TDX is pretty hard to handle - it can "sound" very harsh. The Scan Speak or Morel tweeters are good in my oppinion. Have not heard the Excel without ferrofluid though.
jomor said:
1. which driver is best is a very vague question. however both focal and SS make very good drivers and so do other cos like PHL, Accuton, Vifa (PL line), Audax (Aerogel), etc...
2. i have used and listenened to the 9900, 9500 and MDT33 at great length. Of the 3 the 9500 might be hte best VFM. However if you need the extra db or 2 of sens and are looking a bit more resolution the 9900 is quite good too. I found the MDT33 too lispy (albeit my MDT33 were got in 1987 and they might have changed the design since).
3. The 8546 is a nice midbass. for most listening situations a pair of these will fill a 2500 cu. ft (250 sq. ft x 10 ft) room quite nicely. For HT however a dedicated sub or 2 would be required.
i suggest you listen to some commercially available speakers that use these drivers to get a better picture. I live in India and this opportunity was not available to me so I had to base my purchase on what i got from the net. I was not disappointed.
SEAS:T18RE COAX/TVFC (for that much HT use)
notice the off-axis response.. critical for HT use.
http://www.seas.no/seas_line/coaxial/H1144.pdf
http://www.seas.no/images/Høytaler bilder/h1144_t18re_coax.picture.htm
notice the off-axis response.. critical for HT use.
http://www.seas.no/seas_line/coaxial/H1144.pdf
http://www.seas.no/images/Høytaler bilder/h1144_t18re_coax.picture.htm
I think you would like the scanspeak revelators best, from the description of requirements. I forget the number - the slit cone paper one.... Focal are actually my favorite of the common hifi brands, but they can be brutal to less than perfect source material or electronics. The tweeters are difficult but rewarding.
Navin- I was able to get the lispiness out of my morel MDT37's by either using an LCR trap or a steep crossover. I believe it is related to the impedance peak at Fs.. None of the morel tweeters are particularly smooth WRT impedance. Have you tried this? They can handle first order fine, but it isn't the best sound, at least without some help.
GB
Navin- I was able to get the lispiness out of my morel MDT37's by either using an LCR trap or a steep crossover. I believe it is related to the impedance peak at Fs.. None of the morel tweeters are particularly smooth WRT impedance. Have you tried this? They can handle first order fine, but it isn't the best sound, at least without some help.
GB
One disadvantage of Focal drivers is the fact that they are starting to be made out of unobtainium.
Regards
Charles
Regards
Charles
Focal out of our game
Yup. While there must be a huge stock around, Focal is no longer selling to the diy market.
Unobtainium, not beryllium,, primes.
Maybe you should stick to Scan or Seas, etc.
Yup. While there must be a huge stock around, Focal is no longer selling to the diy market.
Unobtainium, not beryllium,, primes.
Maybe you should stick to Scan or Seas, etc.
Thanks for all the input.
Suppose i stick to scanspeaks and choose the 18W/8546-01. 18W/8546-00 has yellow kevlar, while 18W/8546-01 has black, which i prefer. The 18W/8546-02 has phase plug, whats the pros and cons of a phase plug ?
Anyway 8546 for midbass, and the 9500 for tweeter. What should i choose for the center speaker then ? The 6000 for tweeter since its the only one shielded, but what about the midbasses? I cant find a 13cm shielded version of the kevlar one
, i only found the 15S/8530-00, and i dont know if i could turn to something like Vifa MG14SK09-08 or it will sound crap ( or much different than left-right speaker)
Suppose i stick to scanspeaks and choose the 18W/8546-01. 18W/8546-00 has yellow kevlar, while 18W/8546-01 has black, which i prefer. The 18W/8546-02 has phase plug, whats the pros and cons of a phase plug ?
Anyway 8546 for midbass, and the 9500 for tweeter. What should i choose for the center speaker then ? The 6000 for tweeter since its the only one shielded, but what about the midbasses? I cant find a 13cm shielded version of the kevlar one
, i only found the 15S/8530-00, and i dont know if i could turn to something like Vifa MG14SK09-08 or it will sound crap ( or much different than left-right speaker)
Something to consider for your tweeter...
Im also in the process of searching for drivers for my next project, and just bought a scanspeak 9500 tweeter, a fostex FT48D and a vifa (dont remember model).
and despite all the talk about how scanspeak sounds the best.. I like the Fostex better. The scanspeak sounds slightly better in quality, but is HIGHLY directional when compared to the fostex. So unless the ss 9800 or 9700 is a big step up in quality... im using the fostex tweeter.
Also, the focal TC series tweeters are very good sounding -- assuming you can get a hold of them.
Im also in the process of searching for drivers for my next project, and just bought a scanspeak 9500 tweeter, a fostex FT48D and a vifa (dont remember model).
and despite all the talk about how scanspeak sounds the best.. I like the Fostex better. The scanspeak sounds slightly better in quality, but is HIGHLY directional when compared to the fostex. So unless the ss 9800 or 9700 is a big step up in quality... im using the fostex tweeter.
Also, the focal TC series tweeters are very good sounding -- assuming you can get a hold of them.
I've used the SS 18w/8544 and 8546 for many years with the 9500 tweeter. They are very dynamic at all volume levels and can play loud with no strain. They are easy to crossover too. The Focals are 'harder' sounding in general, especially the T120. The SS will not disapoint.
I have used both scan 95 and 97 and was sceptical about the difference thinking have I wasted my money when I purchased them, waiting for them to arrive. However I shouldnt have worried they are deffinately better tweeters without a doubt, people without golden ears will be able to tell the difference, my mum could and although she doesnt have golden ears she knows what sounds good and what doesnt. The 97 sounds very good, the 95 good. In the UK we get the 97 for not much more over the 95. Whereas in the states they are a lot more expensive, so its up to you. If you want the best the 97 is better but is it worth your extra pennies?
With regards to sound quality and tonal balance, warm sound etc, its mostly in the actual frequency response.
If you have two pairs of speakers with low distortion and can both be played to the same SPL without audible compression. Now if one sounds warm and one hard and forwards, you can actually apply subtle EQ to each and totally alter how each sounds.
With regards to sound quality and tonal balance, warm sound etc, its mostly in the actual frequency response.
If you have two pairs of speakers with low distortion and can both be played to the same SPL without audible compression. Now if one sounds warm and one hard and forwards, you can actually apply subtle EQ to each and totally alter how each sounds.
Good point about the price vs quality differences
Prices in Greece per piece:
9500: 188 €
9700: 217 €
9800: 259 €
9900: 317 €
18W/8531G00: 279 €
18W/8535-00: 279 €
18W/8546: 295 €
( these are with 18% discount of the retail catalog prices )
Prices in Greece per piece:
9500: 188 €
9700: 217 €
9800: 259 €
9900: 317 €
18W/8531G00: 279 €
18W/8535-00: 279 €
18W/8546: 295 €
( these are with 18% discount of the retail catalog prices )
It looks like you have similar pricing to the UK with the tweeters, the 97 not that much more then the 95's but the 99's WAAY more expensive. The 97 and 99 are exactly the same tweeter except for the faceplate.
whats the dispersion like between the 9500 & the 9700?
My 9500 that I tried out was WAY too directional.
That fostex I was listening to seemed to have nice off axis response of about 60-80 degrees, wheras the SS was lucky to have 20.
Prices?
9500 - $83
9700 - $179
9800 - $197
9900 - $208
18W/8531G00 - $224
18W/8535-00 - $140
and being that im going to need 4x of whatever driver I decide on... price is an issue.
$83 * 4 = workable
$179 * 4 = too much money
My 9500 that I tried out was WAY too directional.
That fostex I was listening to seemed to have nice off axis response of about 60-80 degrees, wheras the SS was lucky to have 20.
Prices?
9500 - $83
9700 - $179
9800 - $197
9900 - $208
18W/8531G00 - $224
18W/8535-00 - $140
and being that im going to need 4x of whatever driver I decide on... price is an issue.
$83 * 4 = workable
$179 * 4 = too much money
There is the american prices again more then double for a 97 over a 95, whereas in the UK and it seems greece its only a small amount more.
Surely the dispersion is a factor of the cone size etc and how the dome is profiled and used. I have never had a problem with dispersion with my 95's, who listens to music at 60-80 degrees off axis anyway? you'd be lucky to actually get 20 degrees off with a suitably set up system, unless u wanna walk around.
Although I do know that some people really the sound of tweeters with fantastic dispersion.
Surely the dispersion is a factor of the cone size etc and how the dome is profiled and used. I have never had a problem with dispersion with my 95's, who listens to music at 60-80 degrees off axis anyway? you'd be lucky to actually get 20 degrees off with a suitably set up system, unless u wanna walk around.
Although I do know that some people really the sound of tweeters with fantastic dispersion.
Ive just looked at both tweeters and both have pretty much similar output at 30 and 60 degrees. Have you actually measured your 95? I have heard of ppl having problems with theirs in the past, but this is rare.
5th element said:
i guess it has to do with the closest wall's reflections, suppose there is a wall near the speaker, the waves radiated 60 degrees of axis, hit the wall and come back (with a reduced amplitude of course) enhancing the direct wave, if the time delay of the reflections is short ( wall = quite close ), this is translated to our mind as an amplitude increase at the specific frequencies, if the 60 degrees radiated waves are able to cover all higher spectrum, then the amplitude increase we hear is smoother.
( sorry for the long phrase 😀 )
well, looking at the prices again, in the States seems that the 9500 is the best value for money with big difference...
but with the Greek prices i dont know.. "5th element" what would you do ? 188 € for the 9500, or 217 € for the 9700 ?
but with the Greek prices i dont know.. "5th element" what would you do ? 188 € for the 9500, or 217 € for the 9700 ?
Also consider hiquphon..
they have excellent dispersion and a LOT of x-max. Additionally they are sold in matched pairs - which is very difficult to get with other tweeters. People on the MAD board seem to love'm and these were the tweeters used in the highly rated Metaphor speakers (from the late 90's).
http://www.hiquphon.dk/page1.html
If your interested in Focal tweeters then consider Human speakers (in particular an excellent match with the Accuton C95-T6.
http://www.humanspeakers.com/
they have excellent dispersion and a LOT of x-max. Additionally they are sold in matched pairs - which is very difficult to get with other tweeters. People on the MAD board seem to love'm and these were the tweeters used in the highly rated Metaphor speakers (from the late 90's).
http://www.hiquphon.dk/page1.html
If your interested in Focal tweeters then consider Human speakers (in particular an excellent match with the Accuton C95-T6.
http://www.humanspeakers.com/
jomor said:
The 97 is a clearly better device so for 30 euros more a pair over the 95, i would always go with the 97 just because it seems a waste not to. If your paying that much for a tweeter anyway, 30 euros is not that much as a percentage of the total price.
Because you are matching the tweeter with a suitably excellent mid/bass then I would have no reservations about using the 97.
The only time I would use the 95 over the 97 is when the budget is clearly not going to allow for this extra outlay, or the matching drive units are not of the same quality.
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