Hi all,
this is my first post on the forum and turn to your community because I'm changing my amp capacitors Densen DM-10MKII which mounted eight 10,000 microfarad capacitor, 63V and 35mm diameter.
The capacitors are coated with a blue jacket with the logo of Densen and no marking of capacitors are.
Is that in the first version of DM-10, MKI, rode Roederstein Roe. Now advertise custom made capacitors manufactured by another company with brand especifiaciones.
I would not change the original ringer amplifier because for me is one of the integrated amplifier with elegant sound I ever heard in transistors.
Who makes these capacitors (question mark, it does not work ...: (In order to be able to put about as similar as possible to not change the original sound.
Thank you very much in advance.
dmxplosion
this is my first post on the forum and turn to your community because I'm changing my amp capacitors Densen DM-10MKII which mounted eight 10,000 microfarad capacitor, 63V and 35mm diameter.
The capacitors are coated with a blue jacket with the logo of Densen and no marking of capacitors are.
Is that in the first version of DM-10, MKI, rode Roederstein Roe. Now advertise custom made capacitors manufactured by another company with brand especifiaciones.
I would not change the original ringer amplifier because for me is one of the integrated amplifier with elegant sound I ever heard in transistors.
Who makes these capacitors (question mark, it does not work ...: (In order to be able to put about as similar as possible to not change the original sound.
Thank you very much in advance.
dmxplosion
Hi
In my experience you need to tread carefully in the future caps selection if you do not want to loose the sonic signature.
I like to hear recommendations for which brands sound similar.
Regards
Jozua
In my experience you need to tread carefully in the future caps selection if you do not want to loose the sonic signature.
I like to hear recommendations for which brands sound similar.
Regards
Jozua
As you say I do not like to be wrong in the election. I do not care possible technical improvements in properties best new capacitors. So would be very interested if anyone knows the origin of these "custom made" Densen.
Thanks for your answer, Jozua
regards
dmxplosion
Thanks for your answer, Jozua
regards
dmxplosion
only the amplifier maker can answer your question for sure, the oem may not even be one vendor...
how old is your unit?
get your self an ESR meter and check your existing caps..now the value of the new caps must be better than the ones installed, otherwise i wouldn't bother...
how old is your unit?
get your self an ESR meter and check your existing caps..now the value of the new caps must be better than the ones installed, otherwise i wouldn't bother...
Best ask the question to Densen themselves.
If I had to guess, being a Danish brand, a European brand cap seems a logical place to start. I know that F&T Kondensatoren have a light blue sleeve, and so do BC/Vishay caps that used to be made by Philips before they sold that division to BC.
If I had to guess, being a Danish brand, a European brand cap seems a logical place to start. I know that F&T Kondensatoren have a light blue sleeve, and so do BC/Vishay caps that used to be made by Philips before they sold that division to BC.
I got in Conctact the manufacturer but only provided me with the original values of capacitors. I asked them if I could buy them directly 8 capacitors but I'm waiting for the answer, I imagine will occur along these days.
The amplifier meets this month 12 years. I know it is not time to have a malfunction but the special features of my application if they could cause such wear.
The manufacturer recommends having the power amplifier, with volume at zero when not in use and turn off when you go to spend several days not used. I've rarely off the amplifier, you can say you've been on 24 hours a day 365 days a year in addition to that when I've used that has been most days the average is 5 hours.
I've long thought that may be a Bishay BC because although the external screen printing is different because the current Densen bear the logo of the color of the cover and morphology seem accurate.
Look photos inside Goldmund Mimesis (Bishay BC) and look exactly the same as riding my amp.
Thank you very much everyone for your contributions. I'm not a person develops in technical aspects and the exchange operation will make the service a store. I want to take care of the research because I have an unconditional love him
The amplifier meets this month 12 years. I know it is not time to have a malfunction but the special features of my application if they could cause such wear.
The manufacturer recommends having the power amplifier, with volume at zero when not in use and turn off when you go to spend several days not used. I've rarely off the amplifier, you can say you've been on 24 hours a day 365 days a year in addition to that when I've used that has been most days the average is 5 hours.
I've long thought that may be a Bishay BC because although the external screen printing is different because the current Densen bear the logo of the color of the cover and morphology seem accurate.
Look photos inside Goldmund Mimesis (Bishay BC) and look exactly the same as riding my amp.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Thank you very much everyone for your contributions. I'm not a person develops in technical aspects and the exchange operation will make the service a store. I want to take care of the research because I have an unconditional love him
I would say don't be too concerned with brand. As long as they are good quality capacitors you will have good results. I don't buy all this "capacitor sound" nonsense, especially in this case as they are not in the signal path.
Thank you very much for your opinion.
I do not think the sound of a condenser.
I believe the sound resulting from the sum of the components. Capacitors will be much better than the originals of my amp with better specs but if necessary my concern is not to leave any loose ends for which the amplifier may sound minimally different. I need your seal. It is unmistakable.
regards
dmxplosion
I do not think the sound of a condenser.
I believe the sound resulting from the sum of the components. Capacitors will be much better than the originals of my amp with better specs but if necessary my concern is not to leave any loose ends for which the amplifier may sound minimally different. I need your seal. It is unmistakable.
regards
dmxplosion
Changing those is probably a fool's errand. Measure them for value and loss and you'll likely find all is well. That also predicts the future. If value and loss are good, they likely have many years of good service left.
You may not agree, and that's ok, but at least read this.
You may not agree, and that's ok, but at least read this.
Very kind of you to reply and the link. Interesting.
I found a person in the same situation as me. Was found to make a review of the capacitors that were sulfated by electrolysis. This not think this relates to the quality of the capacitor itself but the effect of electrolysis that affects the capacitor to be charged for a long time without turning off the amplifier. Personally I've been on quite literally 12 years. The sound of the capacitors discharge through the speakers when I turn it off has changed and possibly leaking.
I contacted Densen and I can finally buy 8 original so remove the appearance suggestion.
greetings
I found a person in the same situation as me. Was found to make a review of the capacitors that were sulfated by electrolysis. This not think this relates to the quality of the capacitor itself but the effect of electrolysis that affects the capacitor to be charged for a long time without turning off the amplifier. Personally I've been on quite literally 12 years. The sound of the capacitors discharge through the speakers when I turn it off has changed and possibly leaking.
I contacted Densen and I can finally buy 8 original so remove the appearance suggestion.
greetings
Leave the link to someone who has had this problem with these capacitors.
www.audio-kontakt.com :: Poglej temo - Zamenjava elektrolitskih kondenzatorjev
best regards
www.audio-kontakt.com :: Poglej temo - Zamenjava elektrolitskih kondenzatorjev
best regards
Finally, two days ago I completed capacitor change my Densen DM-10 amplifier.
I have found that after 13 years that I've turned off the amp just a few days (it was always on) capacitors were disabled.
I put:
* 8x10.000uf/63V Multicomp
4x 470uf / 100V Vishay BC
100uF/25V 4x Nichicon Fine Gold
2x 150UF / 6.3 V Nichicon organic polymer (step signal)
In the early hours the sound is hard even in 48 hours has been softening. The sound still has not recovered the natural flow of this amp (one of his virtues) nor their big scene and openness. But for now noteworthy aspects are an extension in the low and high remarkable. He has appeared again but still stuck articulation.
Dynamics have clearly recovered and greater focus, dramatically increased transparency, deep contrast.
according to your experiences how long should set the sound standard amplifier after the new components?
greetings and thanks in advance
dmxplosion
I have found that after 13 years that I've turned off the amp just a few days (it was always on) capacitors were disabled.
I put:
* 8x10.000uf/63V Multicomp
4x 470uf / 100V Vishay BC
100uF/25V 4x Nichicon Fine Gold
2x 150UF / 6.3 V Nichicon organic polymer (step signal)
In the early hours the sound is hard even in 48 hours has been softening. The sound still has not recovered the natural flow of this amp (one of his virtues) nor their big scene and openness. But for now noteworthy aspects are an extension in the low and high remarkable. He has appeared again but still stuck articulation.
Dynamics have clearly recovered and greater focus, dramatically increased transparency, deep contrast.
according to your experiences how long should set the sound standard amplifier after the new components?
greetings and thanks in advance
dmxplosion
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I wonder that there's so much difference, as your amp isn't that old. As Conrad said
I wouldn't even have considered replacing any caps as long as I don't suspect any
leakage (or lytics in the signal path).
Even more, I would not leave the amp on all the time. Switching it on half or one hour
before serious listening should be sufficient. If it sounds that bad then, I would tend
to guess if the amp is designed poorly (what the Densen likely is not).
Do you have some (inside) pictures of your "rebuilt" Densen you want to share?
BTW, I very much did like all Densen amps, I've been listening to. Great dynamics,
transparent, some kind of magic "effortless" speed.
If I ever would buy a commercial amplifier again, I shurely would consider a Densen.
I wouldn't even have considered replacing any caps as long as I don't suspect any
leakage (or lytics in the signal path).
Even more, I would not leave the amp on all the time. Switching it on half or one hour
before serious listening should be sufficient. If it sounds that bad then, I would tend
to guess if the amp is designed poorly (what the Densen likely is not).
Do you have some (inside) pictures of your "rebuilt" Densen you want to share?
BTW, I very much did like all Densen amps, I've been listening to. Great dynamics,
transparent, some kind of magic "effortless" speed.
If I ever would buy a commercial amplifier again, I shurely would consider a Densen.
13 years is nothing for an amplifier. The problem is that the amplifier had lost transparency, dynamics and magic that characterizes the dm-10. Alarmed opened it and saw that at a glance the capacitors were perfect. They were curved, and there were traces of leakage or anything.
I abused the interpretation of leave always on. When I say always always literally. Only I turned it off in 13 years to change cables and by storm. I was traveling and the amplifier was on: (
When I decided to change to remove the old capacitors could effectively measure and saw that only 2 of the 8 10.000uf were within the tolerance range and capacity. The rest did not admit load. To check this I decided to change the rest of capacitors power supply and also the signal path.
I leave photos of my unit before being operated. No obvious signs of poor condition but it had exceeded its useful life by my misuse.
I will leave more detailed photos of the new assembly.
You described perfectly the sound Densen DM-10
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5853/43625563.jpg
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6551/generalhf.jpg
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6828/perdidalupa.jpg
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1250/perdida2bw.jpg
With the new caps
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2667/gn96.jpg
Thanks for your answer.
dmxplosion
I abused the interpretation of leave always on. When I say always always literally. Only I turned it off in 13 years to change cables and by storm. I was traveling and the amplifier was on: (
When I decided to change to remove the old capacitors could effectively measure and saw that only 2 of the 8 10.000uf were within the tolerance range and capacity. The rest did not admit load. To check this I decided to change the rest of capacitors power supply and also the signal path.
I leave photos of my unit before being operated. No obvious signs of poor condition but it had exceeded its useful life by my misuse.
I will leave more detailed photos of the new assembly.
You described perfectly the sound Densen DM-10
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/5853/43625563.jpg
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6551/generalhf.jpg
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/6828/perdidalupa.jpg
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1250/perdida2bw.jpg
With the new caps
http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/2667/gn96.jpg
Thanks for your answer.
dmxplosion
I would give them a whole week (at least 70 hours playing)to reach their best sound....and yes, not all capacitors have the same sound. I try many power supply caps in the past that I lost count lol, until one day I try Mundorf audio grade caps...I can tell you they are not so cheap!, After 50 hours or so, they sounded so good that now they are the ONLY ones that I use in my amps.😉
Thanks for your answer. Quality is the Mundorf. In fact I bought 5 x 10.000uf / 63V for my Densen B400XS cds reader. She has suffered the same abuse my electronics and evil come not a new power supply.
The Multicomp of my DM-10 sent me the factory stock as they no longer had the originals. It is a discontinued series and the MKII version of my amp only 1700 units were made about. The factory was kind of them to me and I used to put them. But I talked to a friend in Spain who had a stage lq DM-30 which replaced the originals with a Mundorf and put back the originals because the sound of the amp with Mundorf was too aggressive.
regards
The Multicomp of my DM-10 sent me the factory stock as they no longer had the originals. It is a discontinued series and the MKII version of my amp only 1700 units were made about. The factory was kind of them to me and I used to put them. But I talked to a friend in Spain who had a stage lq DM-30 which replaced the originals with a Mundorf and put back the originals because the sound of the amp with Mundorf was too aggressive.
regards
Congratulations on your successful restoration project. Electrolytic capacitors are the lowest-lifespan components, in most electronics.
I had to smile when I read something about not using electrolytics in "the signal path". There are two signal paths. The one most people think of is the small signal path, from the inputs to the output devices. That "signal path" STOPS at the output devices.
But the signal that we hear, directly, is the current from the power supply (and decoupling) caps, which goes from the caps, through the ouput transistors, and to the speakers.
The image attached to the post at the link below shows it quite clearly:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/240955-resevoir-capacitors-chip-amps.html#post3599692
The electrolytic capacitors ARE the signal path!
Cheers,
Tom Gootee
I had to smile when I read something about not using electrolytics in "the signal path". There are two signal paths. The one most people think of is the small signal path, from the inputs to the output devices. That "signal path" STOPS at the output devices.
But the signal that we hear, directly, is the current from the power supply (and decoupling) caps, which goes from the caps, through the ouput transistors, and to the speakers.
The image attached to the post at the link below shows it quite clearly:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/240955-resevoir-capacitors-chip-amps.html#post3599692
The electrolytic capacitors ARE the signal path!
Cheers,
Tom Gootee
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Indeed, Gootee, the signal goes directly from the bank to 10.000uf/63 condensers of power bipolar transistors. In the same way after the signal 470uf/100v going to stop at 5 smaller transistors per channel next to the Sanken.
The Multicomp imagine are very upgradable but the factory was very kind to me (as usual) and wanted to use the shipping detail for mounting on the amplifier. However am among those who think that not all the best throws the best sound but I think the chef and trial / error until finding the sound type chosen. So in a way I feel sorry for not being able to mount the original because I'm in love with this amp. The amplifier has about 5 hours of playback from the change. Could leave the computer all day playing at low volume but I think an exciting experience going myself checking the change introduced by the capacitor change and gradual use.
cheers!
The Multicomp imagine are very upgradable but the factory was very kind to me (as usual) and wanted to use the shipping detail for mounting on the amplifier. However am among those who think that not all the best throws the best sound but I think the chef and trial / error until finding the sound type chosen. So in a way I feel sorry for not being able to mount the original because I'm in love with this amp. The amplifier has about 5 hours of playback from the change. Could leave the computer all day playing at low volume but I think an exciting experience going myself checking the change introduced by the capacitor change and gradual use.
cheers!
Electrolytics take a long time for the leakage to drop to final value.
During this long time the electrolytics are effectively reforming the oxide film that creates the capacitor rather than the resistor that allows the leakage.
You can short cut this leakage reducing period by reforming all electrolytics before assembly, at a low reforming current for 48hrs. I find a stop of >12hours and then restart reforming for a further 24hours achieves better results, in total about 4days.
I don't know why the delay reduces leakage, but there is possibly some chemistry going on that I will never understand.
Now when you start up your refurbish, or new build, with the ready reformed caps the leakage currents are down to near final values within a few dozen seconds. No need for a long wait for the operational currents to stabilise.
During this long time the electrolytics are effectively reforming the oxide film that creates the capacitor rather than the resistor that allows the leakage.
You can short cut this leakage reducing period by reforming all electrolytics before assembly, at a low reforming current for 48hrs. I find a stop of >12hours and then restart reforming for a further 24hours achieves better results, in total about 4days.
I don't know why the delay reduces leakage, but there is possibly some chemistry going on that I will never understand.
Now when you start up your refurbish, or new build, with the ready reformed caps the leakage currents are down to near final values within a few dozen seconds. No need for a long wait for the operational currents to stabilise.
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