Currently dialing in my second attempt at a large multi-way system.
Feel free to engage in open discussion, opinions and experiences of anything related to similar large setups or systems.
I respect everyone's conversation even if I disagree or can't relate.
Some topics I'm interested in but not limited to discussing:
Bit of background, as a former DJ, I've played on and owned various types of PA. This led to building my own PA for the home. Over years, desired higher fidelity. Started building 2-way, then 3-way, and now 4-way (technically 5-way). Common theme in all of my DIY systems was horns. Love horns. I've tried many over the years. Modern and vintage. I prefer the old radials, specifically the fiberglass Community Light and Sound offerings I settled on now. Another common factor in all my systems is DSP. I've never designed or build a passive crossover before. At home, I'm a lone wolf with no other friends or family that share a passion of DIY speakers. No mentors, no industry connections. I learn from reading on forums like this one and continual trial and error. Really enjoy this hobby and always open to learning more about audio and acoustics when time permits.
My listening room for context = unfinished basement, concrete block, exposed joist ceiling - 28' L x 11' W x 6.7' H, bay window cutout at one end of the room, no window but follows same shape as floor above with the window. IOW, an acoustic nightmare. Concrete box 🙁 but sometimes you must work with what you have...
First attempt at large 4-way was actually 5 different variations of horns and compression drivers integrated with either 15" or 12" for midbass duty and always 18" for subwoofer duty as shown below.. This is where I started to learned about crossovers, slopes, delay and how to become familiar with DSP in general. Years of experimenting with DSP under my belt now. It is such a powerful tool. Upgraded to VTC DLMS (rebadged Xilica) from previous DBX Driverack. Also started to become familiar with REW and basic measurements. Most importantly learned about some basic room acoustics. Every horn, driver and scenario sounded awful before adding some room treatment.
Previous system before upgrades:
Current system below - second attempt with upgrades - work in progress..
Yorkville SR300 amp - powering pair of Community VHF100 on SRH90 1" fiberglass radials (25" x 6.") and passive JBL 2405H
Yorkville SR300 amp - powering pair of Community M200 midrange drivers on BRH90 2" fiberglass radials (33.5" x 11")
Yorkville AP4040 amp - powering quad 12" JBL 2206H
Yorkville AP4040 amp - powering 3 x JBL 4645c pro cinema subs fitted with 18" JBL 2242H
Behringer inuke NU3000DSP amp - powering pair of 2 x VBSS cabinets 18" Dayton PA-460-8 - 20Hz tune
Crossover points 3.5Khz, 500Hz, 75Hz
Every speaker in bold is upgraded from previous system including new symmetrical room placement.
Room treatment - 3 corners, floor to ceiling super chunk bass traps (pink fluffy insulation), 1 corner is super chunk bass trap sitting on top of JBL corner sub. 6 DIY acoustic panels - 48" x 24" x 12" deep (pink fluffy insulation). 26 acoustic foam panels double layered 12" x 12" x 3" deep, solid auralex foam scattered across ceiling joists.
So far so good, listening experience improved for various reasons.
I mainly listen in three spots. Working from home desk on left wall, not shown but above middle of room. Behind the turntables. Back of room where I lift weights/workout bench.
Room placement is much better now, left channel sounds like right channel and vice versa. Always knew first location near fireplace was flawed due to lack of symmetry with regards to walls. This flaw was obvious even before measurements.
5 x subwoofers is night and day compared to dual. I tried Geddes subwoofer approach and its the best I've heard so far... low frequency response is even throughout the room. Nowhere near perfect but massive improvement. Sub 1 behind left channel on front wall, Sub 2 centered front wall, Sub 3 side wall middle of room, Sub 4 & 5 double stacked 3 feet from back wall/fireplace.
Leave it hear for now because I've run out of time on lunch break...
Feel free to engage in open discussion, opinions and experiences of anything related to similar large setups or systems.
I respect everyone's conversation even if I disagree or can't relate.
Some topics I'm interested in but not limited to discussing:
- large format horns - bigger is better? Dynamics are addictive? Anyone go big and go back to smaller alternatives?
- compression driver diaphragm materials - favorites and why? drivers that measure similar but sound different?
- high efficiency with low distortion - difficult to enjoy smaller speakers in the same way once you've experienced BIG speakers with tons of headroom?
- room placement and room treatment - how do you battle your room acoustics with large setups?
- multiple subwoofers - anyone tried more than pair of subs?
Bit of background, as a former DJ, I've played on and owned various types of PA. This led to building my own PA for the home. Over years, desired higher fidelity. Started building 2-way, then 3-way, and now 4-way (technically 5-way). Common theme in all of my DIY systems was horns. Love horns. I've tried many over the years. Modern and vintage. I prefer the old radials, specifically the fiberglass Community Light and Sound offerings I settled on now. Another common factor in all my systems is DSP. I've never designed or build a passive crossover before. At home, I'm a lone wolf with no other friends or family that share a passion of DIY speakers. No mentors, no industry connections. I learn from reading on forums like this one and continual trial and error. Really enjoy this hobby and always open to learning more about audio and acoustics when time permits.
My listening room for context = unfinished basement, concrete block, exposed joist ceiling - 28' L x 11' W x 6.7' H, bay window cutout at one end of the room, no window but follows same shape as floor above with the window. IOW, an acoustic nightmare. Concrete box 🙁 but sometimes you must work with what you have...
First attempt at large 4-way was actually 5 different variations of horns and compression drivers integrated with either 15" or 12" for midbass duty and always 18" for subwoofer duty as shown below.. This is where I started to learned about crossovers, slopes, delay and how to become familiar with DSP in general. Years of experimenting with DSP under my belt now. It is such a powerful tool. Upgraded to VTC DLMS (rebadged Xilica) from previous DBX Driverack. Also started to become familiar with REW and basic measurements. Most importantly learned about some basic room acoustics. Every horn, driver and scenario sounded awful before adding some room treatment.
Previous system before upgrades:
Current system below - second attempt with upgrades - work in progress..
Yorkville SR300 amp - powering pair of Community VHF100 on SRH90 1" fiberglass radials (25" x 6.") and passive JBL 2405H
Yorkville SR300 amp - powering pair of Community M200 midrange drivers on BRH90 2" fiberglass radials (33.5" x 11")
Yorkville AP4040 amp - powering quad 12" JBL 2206H
Yorkville AP4040 amp - powering 3 x JBL 4645c pro cinema subs fitted with 18" JBL 2242H
Behringer inuke NU3000DSP amp - powering pair of 2 x VBSS cabinets 18" Dayton PA-460-8 - 20Hz tune
Crossover points 3.5Khz, 500Hz, 75Hz
Every speaker in bold is upgraded from previous system including new symmetrical room placement.
Room treatment - 3 corners, floor to ceiling super chunk bass traps (pink fluffy insulation), 1 corner is super chunk bass trap sitting on top of JBL corner sub. 6 DIY acoustic panels - 48" x 24" x 12" deep (pink fluffy insulation). 26 acoustic foam panels double layered 12" x 12" x 3" deep, solid auralex foam scattered across ceiling joists.
So far so good, listening experience improved for various reasons.
I mainly listen in three spots. Working from home desk on left wall, not shown but above middle of room. Behind the turntables. Back of room where I lift weights/workout bench.
Room placement is much better now, left channel sounds like right channel and vice versa. Always knew first location near fireplace was flawed due to lack of symmetry with regards to walls. This flaw was obvious even before measurements.
5 x subwoofers is night and day compared to dual. I tried Geddes subwoofer approach and its the best I've heard so far... low frequency response is even throughout the room. Nowhere near perfect but massive improvement. Sub 1 behind left channel on front wall, Sub 2 centered front wall, Sub 3 side wall middle of room, Sub 4 & 5 double stacked 3 feet from back wall/fireplace.
Leave it hear for now because I've run out of time on lunch break...
Wow, looks amazing!
Five Subwoofers? Did you go directly from one to five or gradually?
Just asking, as I'm currently building two...
Br
Michael
Five Subwoofers? Did you go directly from one to five or gradually?
Just asking, as I'm currently building two...
Br
Michael
That's some firepower you got there... yes, audio can be a lonely hobby although a lot of people enjoy music.
Wow, so much equipment.
You started right IMHO with a long narrow room with few irregularities. I take Wein Philharmonica hall as a guide to good acoustics. I've performed (wind band) in wedge shaped hall with brick walls, thumbs down. I've performed in the center of the Astrodome, thumbs down. I've performed (keyboard & Peavey 1210s) in a 40' x 120' x 20' brick church with carpet, stage on 40' end, not too bad.
I have a similar shaped music room, 33' x 14' x 11', and find it suitable. I break up standing waves with a lot of couches, easy chairs, carpet, acoustic tile, random book & record cases full of media, 4 organs, a piano, 2 organ speakers. I find my environment pleasant, but it does have a 200 hz peak caused by a half wall 14' from the speaker wall (north end). Buy more polyurethane furniture & spread it around.
My hearing stops at 14000 hz due to Army service, so I don't need the 1" CD and horn. I find 1.4" CD more pleasant than any thing else I've owned previously. Covers 1200-17000 hz one iteration, then when SP2-XT (90's) were stolen, 1800-17000 hz SP2(2004). I find titanium diaphragm very low distortion. There have been some complaints of titanium quacking at large volume, but my 75 w peaks are limited to the cannon shot in 1812 overture or similar. My base volume is 1/8 watt, 1 v pp. When I did a 75 w/ch power test of an amp on the SP2-XT, I wore earplugs and muffs. I looked at buying composite diaphragm N314-X CD's but freq response rolled off at 10000, and I can actually hear 10000-14000. I have fabric A22 CD's in some 15" wedge monitors, but the limitations of the box design makes them inferior to the titanium RX22 I listen to daily. That is out at my stupidly shaped trailer at my summer property.
My SP2 15" woofers cover - 3 db to 54 hz, which I find adequate. Crossover is passive 12 db low cut on CD, 6 db high cut on woofer. I've got 3 db bass room gain due to speaker placement close to front plaster wall (not wallboard) so low piano notes and organ notes are not disappointing without a sub. You have concrete end wall which could provide a similar bass boost. I have a Steinway 40 console with which to compare the recorded sound. Very close these days, not disappointing like previous systems.
My previous systems were KLH23 2 way (10"+3" paper) and LWEIII (10" + 3" paper). The LWEIII had bass optical feedback on the woofers which gave amazing bass on tracks like "I wonder what she's doing tonight" Boyce & Hart. The LWE blew a tweeter on my 35 w/ch tube amp, then in storage at my father's garage while I was in the Army, he gave them away. The KLH23 were always ho hum. Oh I did have some Peavey 1210's for a year or two, dual 10" woofers and triple mallory piezo tweeters. Those were pleasant but stolen after 18 months.
I've had dynaco ST70 tube amp, which had more distortion than dynaco ST120 transistor amp with djoffe mods to prevent crossover distortion. Similar sound comes from a Peavey CS800s amp, which is specified at .03% HD full volume. CS800s has too much power for indoors, so I now have a Peavey M-2600 75 w/ch amp. All of the last 3 sound about the same. The ST120 popped a ground wire on a point to point AX6 board and developed a hum problem, so the M-2600 was a lot easier to replace 30 year old caps and runs daily.
You started right IMHO with a long narrow room with few irregularities. I take Wein Philharmonica hall as a guide to good acoustics. I've performed (wind band) in wedge shaped hall with brick walls, thumbs down. I've performed in the center of the Astrodome, thumbs down. I've performed (keyboard & Peavey 1210s) in a 40' x 120' x 20' brick church with carpet, stage on 40' end, not too bad.
I have a similar shaped music room, 33' x 14' x 11', and find it suitable. I break up standing waves with a lot of couches, easy chairs, carpet, acoustic tile, random book & record cases full of media, 4 organs, a piano, 2 organ speakers. I find my environment pleasant, but it does have a 200 hz peak caused by a half wall 14' from the speaker wall (north end). Buy more polyurethane furniture & spread it around.
My hearing stops at 14000 hz due to Army service, so I don't need the 1" CD and horn. I find 1.4" CD more pleasant than any thing else I've owned previously. Covers 1200-17000 hz one iteration, then when SP2-XT (90's) were stolen, 1800-17000 hz SP2(2004). I find titanium diaphragm very low distortion. There have been some complaints of titanium quacking at large volume, but my 75 w peaks are limited to the cannon shot in 1812 overture or similar. My base volume is 1/8 watt, 1 v pp. When I did a 75 w/ch power test of an amp on the SP2-XT, I wore earplugs and muffs. I looked at buying composite diaphragm N314-X CD's but freq response rolled off at 10000, and I can actually hear 10000-14000. I have fabric A22 CD's in some 15" wedge monitors, but the limitations of the box design makes them inferior to the titanium RX22 I listen to daily. That is out at my stupidly shaped trailer at my summer property.
My SP2 15" woofers cover - 3 db to 54 hz, which I find adequate. Crossover is passive 12 db low cut on CD, 6 db high cut on woofer. I've got 3 db bass room gain due to speaker placement close to front plaster wall (not wallboard) so low piano notes and organ notes are not disappointing without a sub. You have concrete end wall which could provide a similar bass boost. I have a Steinway 40 console with which to compare the recorded sound. Very close these days, not disappointing like previous systems.
My previous systems were KLH23 2 way (10"+3" paper) and LWEIII (10" + 3" paper). The LWEIII had bass optical feedback on the woofers which gave amazing bass on tracks like "I wonder what she's doing tonight" Boyce & Hart. The LWE blew a tweeter on my 35 w/ch tube amp, then in storage at my father's garage while I was in the Army, he gave them away. The KLH23 were always ho hum. Oh I did have some Peavey 1210's for a year or two, dual 10" woofers and triple mallory piezo tweeters. Those were pleasant but stolen after 18 months.
I've had dynaco ST70 tube amp, which had more distortion than dynaco ST120 transistor amp with djoffe mods to prevent crossover distortion. Similar sound comes from a Peavey CS800s amp, which is specified at .03% HD full volume. CS800s has too much power for indoors, so I now have a Peavey M-2600 75 w/ch amp. All of the last 3 sound about the same. The ST120 popped a ground wire on a point to point AX6 board and developed a hum problem, so the M-2600 was a lot easier to replace 30 year old caps and runs daily.
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Hello
Nice set-up!
I have been running a HE stereo set-up as part of my HT for almost 20 years. Currently based around JBL E-145's so sensitivity is about 98dB 1 meter. Uses JBL 10" 2123's and JBL 2453SL on PTH1010 waveguides. Subs are B380 clones 2235 in 4.5 cubic ft. Crossovers at 80/300/1.5k. All analog no DSP. Using older Crown PS-400 for the subs and 3 PS-200's for the balance.
HT adds 2 LFE subs JBL 2266's and an Array 880 center rears are Revel dipoles.
Old vs Now
You running the 2206's as dipoles?
Rob 🙂
Nice set-up!
I have been running a HE stereo set-up as part of my HT for almost 20 years. Currently based around JBL E-145's so sensitivity is about 98dB 1 meter. Uses JBL 10" 2123's and JBL 2453SL on PTH1010 waveguides. Subs are B380 clones 2235 in 4.5 cubic ft. Crossovers at 80/300/1.5k. All analog no DSP. Using older Crown PS-400 for the subs and 3 PS-200's for the balance.
HT adds 2 LFE subs JBL 2266's and an Array 880 center rears are Revel dipoles.
Old vs Now
You running the 2206's as dipoles?
Rob 🙂
Attachments
Hehe
Went from this 5 way
And then this
/ This
To this 4 way
Which setup do you think I prefer?
Went from this 5 way
And then this
/ This
To this 4 way
Which setup do you think I prefer?
For me the nicest HF compression driver I've heard is the Vitavox S2 1.5" throat.
Updated to latest diaphragms that Vitavox do..
These migrated from the 5way systems to the MEHs - eventually..
I couldn't get in with the 1" compression drivers I've tried. BMS4550 and quite a bit nicer Tymhpany by Peerless (group buy on here).
But still the S2 eats them alive.
For MF compression drivers, I really liked the tone and depth of the JBL2482 phenolic diaphragm.
The tone of say a clarinet on these drivers is just stunning.
There's a reason Hammond use them in their Leslie set up..
The MEHs use 4 X Celestion 5" sealed back for MF (although 2 are fine for hifi🙂) which on most material perform really very well. They are limited to ~325Hz to ~954Hz by the acoustic XOs of the MEH.
When it comes to LF, 325Hz down to ~50Hz the 2x12" drivers (part horn loaded, part bass reflex) MEHs are much better than the single driver 15" or 12" driver exponential horns I'd used before!
Doesn't matter how long you make the horn it lacked punch / even sitting > 14' away from the mouth, the MEH LF is more powerful, kicky, bass guitar sound reproducing and interesting.
The two tapped horns are the one constant that's lived in my systems since my very first 5 way horn setup.
They integrate with the MEH LF very nicely at 55Hz down to 20Hz on 6th order LR XO.
I'd really like that JBL 2482 MF tone on some material from a MEH, but it's not going to happen..
Updated to latest diaphragms that Vitavox do..
These migrated from the 5way systems to the MEHs - eventually..
I couldn't get in with the 1" compression drivers I've tried. BMS4550 and quite a bit nicer Tymhpany by Peerless (group buy on here).
But still the S2 eats them alive.
For MF compression drivers, I really liked the tone and depth of the JBL2482 phenolic diaphragm.
The tone of say a clarinet on these drivers is just stunning.
There's a reason Hammond use them in their Leslie set up..
The MEHs use 4 X Celestion 5" sealed back for MF (although 2 are fine for hifi🙂) which on most material perform really very well. They are limited to ~325Hz to ~954Hz by the acoustic XOs of the MEH.
When it comes to LF, 325Hz down to ~50Hz the 2x12" drivers (part horn loaded, part bass reflex) MEHs are much better than the single driver 15" or 12" driver exponential horns I'd used before!
Doesn't matter how long you make the horn it lacked punch / even sitting > 14' away from the mouth, the MEH LF is more powerful, kicky, bass guitar sound reproducing and interesting.
The two tapped horns are the one constant that's lived in my systems since my very first 5 way horn setup.
They integrate with the MEH LF very nicely at 55Hz down to 20Hz on 6th order LR XO.
I'd really like that JBL 2482 MF tone on some material from a MEH, but it's not going to happen..
I'm running slightly upgraded Klipsch Belles with a lilmike horn subwoofer. 100% horn loaded and 200% amazing. Can't wait to do the full Volti upgrade on the Belles. My room is large with a cathedral ceiling and connected to two hallways. Minimal room treatment. The system will blow your face off as it stands but I've heard the Volti upgrades and I don't think my life will be complete without them.
I had RF7iis in this same room and they sounded ... bad. They're now in a smaller room set up as a home theater. The eWaves (see below), with their much larger horn, sounded better in this room (even my wife noticed!)
The speakers in the garage that are sometimes used for yard-movie-night are eWaves paired with another lilmike subwoofer.
I had RF7iis in this same room and they sounded ... bad. They're now in a smaller room set up as a home theater. The eWaves (see below), with their much larger horn, sounded better in this room (even my wife noticed!)
The speakers in the garage that are sometimes used for yard-movie-night are eWaves paired with another lilmike subwoofer.
