Beyond the Ariel

Earl,
So is there a specific depository to get that holmImpulse software, do I just go to Sourceforge? I'll take a look at your White paper and see what I can learn there. Thanks for offering this up, it is always nice when people actually share rather than make this stuff proprietary. I can only imagine the crazy things people will come up with to task anyone trying to make this work.

Steven

ps. I find a few sites showing the software for download but don't trust some of them. I see a version HOLMImpulse 1.4.1.6: Is this the latest version or correct version to download?

Found the home page and downloaded the program.

http://www.downloadcollection.com/holmimpulse_x64.htm
 
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gedlee said:
My software uses HolmImpulse data files. This makes the most sense to me because this software is free. I didn't want to pick a software package that was not free for obvious reasons. ***
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The HolmImpulse files are text files, right? How are the files different from the .frd standard? Most measurement programs export FRD, and a lot of open source tools (e.g. most open source crossover design software) work on FRD files.

I'd love to use your polar map drawing app, but am not interested in learning the quirks of another measurement system and suffer through the hassles of configuring audio measurement hardware in an inferior OS. (I use FuzzMeasure on OSX for all my measurements.)

Also, I can't even see your maps any more, because I still use Windows XP for my virtual machine and the .NET stuff doesn't work with it any longer. And no interest in buying new Windows. XP does everything (else) I'd care to do in not-OSX: model cabinets in Unibox, simulate crossovers in Xsim, and run Anthem ARC room correction.
 
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Earl,
You can't solve world peace, oh my! What good is software that can't solve world peace or predict the winning lottery numbers?

Thanks for turning me on to the HolmImpulse software. It was easy to install and then it said there was an update the first time I opened it. The update was a pain as it kept stalling when downloading but I finally got it to finish after about 4 attempts.
 
Pallas - well the software will never run in anything but an "inferior OS" so your requests are moot. But FRD files are frequency response not impulse response as Holm produces, but yes they are text files.

Kindhornman - yes I have found Holm to be extremely effective at producing raw impulse response files, but its post processing capabilities are not very useful. At the time, nobody was doing post processing the way I wanted to see it, so I wrote my own app based on impulse responses. The program could be readily adapted to read any form of impulse response, but not frequency response - impulse response timing is crucial.
 
Earl,
Do you think the impulse response files in Clio would be in the correct format? It does both FR and IR types of testing with both Sin and MLS testing.
 
I will be ordering 414, 416 and 902/802 form GPA, but I am unsure about going with 16 or 8 ohm versions and the choice between the 802 and the 902 and diaphragms on these. I am using SS amplification but there are plans for going with a valve amplifier on the mids highs.

I will first try a two way with the 414 and 902/802 and then try to integrate the 416 as an extension of the system. The idea is to have a "small" two way and an large "three" way system. I will be using the Autotech Iwata 600 horn cut at 1-1.2k (estimated).

If not an 802/902, there are the Radian Be diaphragm drivers or the 288/388, which would allow other possibilities if deciding to cross lower on the future.

I would appreciate yours suggestions before making the order.
 
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Kindhornman said:
Earl,
Do you think the impulse response files in Clio would be in the correct format? It does both FR and IR types of testing with both Sin and MLS testing.
Click to expand...

I don't know for sure, but few, if any, programs will export an array of impulse responses into a single file. Otherwise one has a dozen files or more, each with a different name and this gets unwieldy when one does many speakers. So the Holm export of the entire array of impulse responses is not only ideal, but essentially a requirement.

One could (but not me) write a simple program that would read several separate impulse response files into a single file that matched the format of the Holm data files. Then this could be read by my program without any trouble. The reason that I won't do that is because then everyone will want their specific program data read as well. I offer a single standardized input format and others should arrange to meet that format if they want to use the software.

I would like to point out that the techniques used in Holm are known to be the best possible means of obtaining an impulse response - its free, uses the optimal techniques and produces the optimal data files - why use anything else?
 
Thanks for the response Earl. It was just having to learn another program to go along with all the others I am always having to learn for some other applications. I guess one more won't hurt to learn.

Steven
 
You could save the impulses as .wav and then import them to Holm.....I think that's what I did with some data I sent to Earl last year. I thought you had a way of dealing with the timing issue Earl?
 
The time issue is fine as long as Holm is used with a synch on the time base. Then all of the impulses are synched in time. This not true in most software and not so with FRD files. That's why Holm is necessary.
 
gedlee said:
Pallas - well the software will never run in anything but an "inferior OS" so your requests are moot. But FRD files are frequency response not impulse response as Holm produces, but yes they are text files.
Click to expand...

To be clear, my "inferior OS" comment was in regards to learning how to set up a new measurement package, though I was disappointed last time I tried to view polar maps on your website and discovered that they are no longer viewable through XP.

A couple years ago, a friend asked me to help find the best place for a subwoofer. I brought my MacBook but the battery was low and I didn't bring the charger, so we downloaded REW to his computer. We could never get it to "talk" to my USB microphone preamp. There were some special drivers needed, and a whole bunch of mess. Eventually I just suggested I go home and get my power adapter while he kept on trying to get the USB preamp (ART Dual Pre) to talk to the computer. Needless to say, it never worked. When I returned we got the measurements done on my Mac in FuzzMeasure.

By contrast, the first time I used FuzzMeasure, and every subsequent time, it was a matter of plug in interface cable (then FireWire, currently USB), select I/O in the software, and go. IOW, designed for someone who wants a computer to just work to do stuff, and not spend a lot of time learning the intricacies of a computer OS. All the learning involved was related to the craft of measuring loudspeakers, not futzing with computers.

So I'm not inclined to subject myself to that process again!


natehansen66 said:
You could save the impulses as .wav and then import them to Holm.....I think that's what I did with some data I sent to Earl last year. I thought you had a way of dealing with the timing issue Earl?
Click to expand...

Good call! I'll try that next time I measure a speaker, if Earl's willing to look at data from a Mac snob. 😉

What I currently do for polar maps is export FRDs from FuzzMeasure and load them into Bill Waslo's Omnimic package. (The omnimic software is a free download.) Its graphics are not as sharp as I remember Earl's package generating, but they show the data. I just checked to see if FM will export impulses as a text file, and it will...but into 24MB of text! But it can also export wav files, and if Holm can read a wav file that solves the "software can't talk to measurement hardware" problem. (Alternately, if anyone has developed a package to render polar maps in OSX, please PM me a link so I can buy it!)
 
Pallas,
I don't know the REW software but I will say I use a Windows based computer and it does in fact easily handle my Clio software for both FR and Ir testing. It all comes down to the software, it has nothing to do with the hardware. The fact is today any Mac computer is nothing more than a fancy Windows compatible machine using Intel processors. There is no real difference anymore besides the cost and looks of the computer. i would not have blamed the problem on the windows computer it really was a software problem all along.
 
Fuzz measure?? Super limited, isnt it?
FWIW .net is working fine for me on XP. Never had too much trouble getting HOLM, REW or ARTA to talk to my M-Audio sound cards. ASIO or other drivers.

Yes Windoze machines are quirky, you just have to know how to talk to them. 😀
 
swak said:
...
I will first try a two way with the 414 and 902/802 and then try to integrate the 416 as an extension of the system. The idea is to have a "small" two way and an large "three" way system. I will be using the Autotech Iwata 600 horn cut at 1-1.2k (estimated).

If not an 802/902, there are the Radian Be diaphragm drivers or the 288/388, which would allow other possibilities if deciding to cross lower on the future.

I would appreciate yours suggestions before making the order.
Click to expand...

suggestion
 
swak said:
I will be ordering 414, 416 and 902/802 form GPA, but I am unsure about going with 16 or 8 ohm versions and the choice between the 802 and the 902 and diaphragms on these. I am using SS amplification but there are plans for going with a valve amplifier on the mids highs.

I will first try a two way with the 414 and 902/802 and then try to integrate the 416 as an extension of the system. The idea is to have a "small" two way and an large "three" way system. I will be using the Autotech Iwata 600 horn cut at 1-1.2k (estimated).

If not an 802/902, there are the Radian Be diaphragm drivers or the 288/388, which would allow other possibilities if deciding to cross lower on the future.

I would appreciate yours suggestions before making the order.
Click to expand...
I had a similar setup some 25 years ago: Iwata 600 horn and Altec 808-8B with 909-16A diaphragm, crossed over at 1.2 kHz. The plan was to use an Altec 414, but because it was unobtainable, I settled on a Gauss 3181D. Subwoofer was initially a single JBL LE15A, this was quickly replaced by four 10" subwoofers. The in-room balance was never fully satisfying with the 600 horn. This improved a lot when switching to an Iwata 300 horn and a cross-over frequency of 700Hz.

My number one suggestion is to use the Autotech Iwata 300 horn instead of the 600.
I was able to compare all diaphragms for the Altec 802 (the 808 only differs in standard diaphragm) and came to the same conclusion as most of my acquaintances: a preference for the 909-16A diaphragm (Note: impedance is 12.5 ohm in the operating range).
This compression driver is an exception between the 1" drivers in being very good below 1.6 kHz. The drawback is that is a bit less perfect above 9 kHz, so a super-tweeter can improve this range especially with the narrow dispersion of the 300 horn in the upper 2 octaves.

A second suggestion is to do the 2-way with the 416. (The 414 is not the easiest driver to fit dynamically with the other drivers). The larger magnet size of the 604 makes it an even better dynamic fit to the 802, but I have no idea if GPA would make this available as woofer only.

A third suggestion would be to go for the Altec 288 instead of the 802. But this suggestion makes a smaller sound difference than the 2 previous, so it might not be worth the extra budget.
 
Kindhornman said:
i would not have blamed the problem on the windows computer it really was a software problem all along.
Click to expand...

To be clear, I wasn't blaming the hardware. I was blaming the clunky software running on them. Unfortunately running on elegant and finely-crafted hardware does not improve windows.

ASIO...that sounds like the thing that wouldn't work. As for the cost difference...some people would rather use nice looking tools. I'm one of them. Besides, the non-Mac laptops that aren't plastic junk and have good screens cost about as much. And those things don't even have proper magnetic power adapters. They have crude plugs that are easy to break. (True, so does the new MacBook...and the inferior power port was the sole reason I recently bought a Retina MacBook Pro instead of the sleeker MacBook to replace my old MacBook. A klutz with a toddler at home...)

Pano said:
Fuzz measure?? Super limited, isnt it?
FWIW .net is working fine for me on XP. Never had too much trouble getting HOLM, REW or ARTA to talk to my M-Audio sound cards. ASIO or other drivers.

Yes Windoze machines are quirky, you just have to know how to talk to them. 😀
Click to expand...

How do you see FM as limited, aside from the items I mention below?

The new version of FuzzMeasure (4) was a complete rewrite in a new language. It has some limits (can't do polar maps; I don't think it can do impedance any more; no more y-offsetting to separate multiple graphs; difference comparisons are now subtraction rather than division, so you can't do things like measure the effect of a grill or acoustically "transparent" screen) but overall works great for everything else. Also, IMO, the way FM4 handles microphone calibration files alone makes it worth the upgrade cost. And the old version still does impedance and difference measurements. I expect FM4 will add back some of FM3's features (all of the above except for polar maps) in future updates.

How did you get .net to work in XP? I'd like to view the polar maps Earl has assembled.
 
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